Liz Cheney says Trump appears to have been ‘personally involved in planning’ 6 Jan insurrection

[ThisIsMe]

ThisIsMe wrote: There are only 2 answers, either he believed he had legal standing and tried to use it, or he he knew he didn't have legal standing, and he enacted a plan that he knew was illegal and he knew would have never worked. 21POST09-POST#917

NFBW wrote: Instead of using terms “legal and illegal” can we use “constitutional“and unconstitutional” for the basic reason that we are discussing a sitting president of the United States of America who took an oath of office to protect and defend the Constitution. Trump is quite a bit different than the average Joe Sixpack sitting in a bar drinking his daily beers while watching Trump on TV saying it’s statistically impossible for him to not win the election and believing him. Can we do that? 21POST09-POST#918

I think legal and illegal is kind of relevant, since Trump is about to be referred to the justice department for prosecution.

 

[ThisIsMe]

ThisIsMe wrote: There are only 2 answers, either he believed he had legal standing and tried to use it, or he knew he didn't have legal standing, and he enacted a plan that he knew was illegal and he knew would have never worked. 21POST09-POST#917

NFBW wrote: I see in your biased and lopsided attempts to normalize DJT you are trying to dismiss the over-arching fact that DJT could care less whether his devised plan to overturn the election was constitutional or not. 21POST09-POST#919

NFBW wrote: You must admit that DJT has a powerful motive clearly established by observing his behavior to keep his base riled up and motivated. As long as Trump has 50 million Americans and supporters who would fight for him, not only do they send him money but it forces the big money donors to send him big money as well. So the money comes from people who do not give a damn whether Trump cares about the constitution. Too bad but hat is just the way it is. 21POST09-POST#919

NFBW wrote: And then again, there’s the other motivation, not quite so obvious but it surely needs to be put on the table. It is the disgraced General Michael Flynn chaos plan. There is quite the probability that DJ T would implement an unconstitutional plan just to see what kind of chaos it could create in order to impose martial law or the insurrection act. You should not be so hasty to rule that out. We do know that Flynn was invited to the White House in December after all 50 states certified their election results. 21POST09-POST#919

I see in your biased and lopsided attempts to normalize DJT

I'm not normalizing him, I'm just trying to point out the fallacy of trying to enact a plan that he knows is going to be scrutinized 9 ways to Sunday, if he knows it's illegal.

So the money comes from people who do not give a damn whether Trump cares about the constitution

I do not understand what people donating to Trump has to do with his actions on the 6th? Of course if people believe the election was stolen, they are going to donate to help him fight it. That is not illegal for him to do it.

There is quite the probability that DJ T would implement an unconstitutional plan just to see what kind of chaos it could create in order to impose martial law or the insurrection act.

Has Flynn indicated that Trump put that on the table? Until he does, we can only speculate what the spoke about.

 

[ThisIsMe]

6 more subpoenas. I wonder how the democrats are going to force the Trump allies to lie under oath? They have to do so, if your fantasies are going to survive another day.

So...torture? Death threats to their families?

Sure, let's see what comes of that. It will be on TV. They are not my fantasies. I'm just pointing out that it would not make a bit of sense to try and do something you KNEW to be illegal, since you KNOW it's going to have massive legal challenges. There's no point to try and do it unless you believe it is legal.

I wish you two would understand, I'm not trying to defend TRUMP lol, I have stated several times that I don't care what happens. If he's guilty, the so be it. I've only ever been trying to debate whether or not he can be held legally liable, as I've been saying all this time.

 

[ThisIsMe]

ThisIsMe wrote: There are only 2 answers, either he believed he had legal standing and tried to use it, or he knew he didn't have legal standing, and he enacted a plan that he knew was illegal and he knew would have never worked. 21POST09-POST#917

NFBW wrote: I see in your biased and lopsided attempts to normalize DJT you are trying to dismiss the over-arching fact that DJT could care less whether his devised plan to overturn the election was constitutional or not. 21POST09-POST#919

NFBW wrote: You must admit that DJT has a powerful motive clearly established by observing his behavior to keep his base riled up and motivated. As long as Trump has 50 million Americans and supporters who would fight for him, not only do they send him money but it forces the big money donors to send him big money as well. So the money comes from people who do not give a damn whether Trump cares about the constitution. Too bad but hat is just the way it is. 21POST09-POST#919

NFBW wrote: And then again, there’s the other motivation, not quite so obvious but it surely needs to be put on the table. It is the disgraced General Michael Flynn chaos plan. There is quite the probability that DJ T would implement an unconstitutional plan just to see what kind of chaos it could create in order to impose martial law or the insurrection act. You should not be so hasty to rule that out. We do know that Flynn was invited to the White House in December after all 50 states certified their election results. 21POST09-POST#919

Also, are you going to address my question about the national voting compact? Did you support that? I know the manner in which each would have been carried out would have been different, but the results would have been the same. Millions of voters would have been denied their vote. Why does the left defend those 16 states and their compact, but get angry about the Eastman plan?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Thomas Baranyi.​

ThisIsMe wrote: Did you support { the national voting compact } that? I know the manner in which each would have been carried out would have been different, 21NOV09-POST#924​

NFBW wrote: FIrst of all, if {the national voting compact} was judged to be Constitutional by the highest court, then and only then, wouid I render an opinion on something that, as you say “the manner in which each would have been carried out would have been different,” . Yes “different” because it precisely was the unconstitutional attempt to non-violently overturn the certified election by DJT, who was, at the time, a sitting first term US President who lost his bid for a second term by 8 million votes. No first term ‘2nd election loser’ has ever attempted to subvert the election that he lost with the BIG LIE that he won, and then, after all 50 states comply with the constitutional requirement to “certify” their electors, binding them to his opponents win, this sore loser president, conspired with others, with non-violent, non-military, no rightwing militia intent, setting the constitutionally required date of Jan6 for something WILD to occur that would lead to a turn of events designed to make the loser the winner as the final outcome. But one key person refused at the last minute to violate his oath to protect and defend the constitution. Pence refused as VIce President to follow a presidential order that violated the Constitution and democracy, so the peaceful attempt to overturn the election failed. 21NOV10-POST#925

NFBW wrote: However DJT’s Big Lie Oldestyle plus public knowledge of the planned soft election coup Correll to stop the constitutionally mandated certification of the electors ThisIsMe created these two pieces of shit, ignorant, anti-democracy’ little fascist emilynghiem Americans(?) along with about a thousand others who used the peaceful ‘Stop the Steal’ rally attendees to launch a violent coup attempt for the very same purpose. The violence clearly was incited by DJT ClaireH and his big lie. 21NOV10-POST#925

NFBW wrote: The two pieces of unAmerican shit I speak of that were incited by DJT to act are Ashley Babbit and the dude next to her when one bullet stopped her violent attack on Congress members and stopped the assault from a young Jan6 marauder named Thomas Baranyi. You all know Ashley ‘target practice’ Babbit as Faun so properly tagged her, but I believe we all should get to know how a minor league freshman fascist like Thomas Baranyi could be incited to act so nonchalantly VIOLENT against the US Government after seeing a fellow rioter get shot and then bemoan his righteousness to a reporter telling all American parents . . “Babbit could be your kid” . . to magnify DJT’s incitement of his “going to be wild” mob that day. 21NOV10-POST#925

“””” Donald Trump falsely said the 2020 presidential election was marred by widespread voter fraud and that he was the true victor. He told his supporters to "fight" for him as Congress confirmed President-elect Joe Biden's election victory in the Capitol building.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/man-standing-next-ashli-babbitt-214937020.html

Baranyi said he personally participated in the storming of the Capitol building to stop Congress from counting the electoral college votes for Biden.

"We tore through the scaffolding, through flash bangs and tear gas, and blitzed our way in through all the chambers just trying to get into Congress or whoever we could get in to and tell them that we need some kind of investigation into this," he said, according to the FBI affidavit Thomas Baranyi. “”””

 

[Oldestyle]

You're wrong from the start. He claims he did warn the mob to stay back. Others saw him and saw the gun and even yelled he's got a gun. At least one held his hands up to motion surrender. The others started backing away. All except Benedict Babbitt.

And it doesn't appear he panicked. He didn't shoot anyone who was breaking windows or pounding on the doors. He didn't shoot until someone was actually about to breach the police barricade forged on his side of the doors, which was only feet away from an unbarricaded door leading into the House chamber where lawmakers were still hold up.

We've got audio on those videos of the scene that took place at the doorway prior to Babbitt being shot, Faun. I've listened to them repeatedly now. I've never heard the Capitol Police officer give a warning before that shot rings out. Would you care to back up his claim that he DID warn the mob to stay back? You're now claiming that the door into the House chamber was "unbarricaded"? I've shown pictures of the doors into the House chamber that were in fact barricaded. So why did that particular officer do what nobody else did that entire day...fire upon unarmed protesters without warning?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

ThisIsMe wrote: Why does the left defend those 16 states and their compact, but get angry about the Eastman plan? 21NOV09-POST#924

NFBW wrote: Are you not angry about the Eastman plan ThisIsMe ? If not, why not? Does it not upset you that all the black voters in Detroit, Atlanta, Philadelphia etc were to have their votes canceled, rejected, nullified, dismissed, not counted because they voted for Biden and/or against DJT and for no other reason than that. Why does that not upset you? - - - The subject of your whataboutism { the national voting compact } does not disenfranchise big city voters that are largely populated by black Americans. The Eastman plan purposely targets big city black voters by targeting where they live. The essence of the Eastman plan is racist and that angers me. Thank you for asking ThisIsMe 21NOV10-POST#927

 

[NotfooledbyW]

. I've listened to them repeatedly now.

Do you have special ears that enable you to hear words on the other side of a doorway over and above the loud voices and commotion on your side? Oldestyle ?

To be shot as the idiot Babbitt was she had her upper body stuffed in the only opening that could let sound waves through. You need to think about reality before advancing your stupid arguments into written form.

Babbit was one of potentially tens of thousands of MAGA nut case Trump diehards that showed upon that day as far as that officer knew. He was defending live members of Congress, their staff, his fellow officers, and the second and third in succession to the President. He is a hero without question. Because of who he was defending and he was defending my vote to select who I want to be President - I wouid gladly shake his hand and thank him. In my opinion he didnt shoot enough raging fascists that day and not one of them deserved a warning before they were about to be shot.

 

[ThisIsMe]

Thomas Baranyi.​

ThisIsMe wrote: Did you support { the national voting compact } that? I know the manner in which each would have been carried out would have been different, 21NOV09-POST#924​

NFBW wrote: FIrst of all, if {the national voting compact} was judged to be Constitutional by the highest court, then and only then, wouid I render an opinion on something that, as you say “the manner in which each would have been carried out would have been different,” . Yes “different” because it precisely was the unconstitutional attempt to non-violently overturn the certified election by DJT, who was, at the time, a sitting first term US President who lost his bid for a second term by 8 million votes. No first term ‘2nd election loser’ has ever attempted to subvert the election that he lost with the BIG LIE that he won, and then, after all 50 states comply with the constitutional requirement to “certify” their electors, binding them to his opponents win, this sore loser president, conspired with others, with non-violent, non-military, no rightwing militia intent, setting the constitutionally required date of Jan6 for something WILD to occur that would lead to a turn of events designed to make the loser the winner as the final outcome. But one key person refused at the last minute to violate his oath to protect and defend the constitution. Pence refused as VIce President to follow a presidential order that violated the Constitution and democracy, so the peaceful attempt to overturn the election failed. 21NOV10-POST#925

NFBW wrote: However DJT’s Big Lie Oldestyle plus public knowledge of the planned soft election coup Correll to stop the constitutionally mandated certification of the electors ThisIsMe created these two pieces of shit, ignorant, anti-democracy’ little fascist emilynghiem Americans(?) along with about a thousand others who used the peaceful ‘Stop the Steal’ rally attendees to launch a violent coup attempt for the very same purpose. The violence clearly was incited by DJT ClaireH and his big lie. 21NOV10-POST#925

NFBW wrote: The two pieces of unAmerican shit I speak of that were incited by DJT to act are Ashley Babbit and the dude next to her when one bullet stopped her violent attack on Congress members and stopped the assault from a young Jan6 marauder named Thomas Baranyi. You all know Ashley ‘target practice’ Babbit as Faun so properly tagged her, but I believe we all should get to know how a minor league freshman fascist like Thomas Baranyi could be incited to act so nonchalantly VIOLENT against the US Government after seeing a fellow rioter get shot and then bemoan his righteousness to a reporter telling all American parents . . “Babbit could be your kid” . . to magnify DJT’s incitement of his “going to be wild” mob that day. 21NOV10-POST#925

“””” Donald Trump falsely said the 2020 presidential election was marred by widespread voter fraud and that he was the true victor. He told his supporters to "fight" for him as Congress confirmed President-elect Joe Biden's election victory in the Capitol building.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/man-standing-next-ashli-babbitt-214937020.html

Baranyi said he personally participated in the storming of the Capitol building to stop Congress from counting the electoral college votes for Biden.

"We tore through the scaffolding, through flash bangs and tear gas, and blitzed our way in through all the chambers just trying to get into Congress or whoever we could get in to and tell them that we need some kind of investigation into this," he said, according to the FBI affidavit Thomas Baranyi. “”””

FIrst of all, if {the national voting compact} was judged to be Constitutional by the highest court, then and only then, wouid I render an opinion on something that,

I don't believe a court would render that method as constitutional, the process by which states could bypass the will of the voters. I'm just trying to ascertain if you supported that plan, and why you would defend that, but be upset at the Eastman Plan. Are both plans, at their core, not the same thing? Do they both not subvert the will of the voter?

 

[Correll]

I'm not normalizing him, I'm just trying to point out the fallacy of trying to enact a plan that he knows is going to be scrutinized 9 ways to Sunday, if he knows it's illegal.



I do not understand what people donating to Trump has to do with his actions on the 6th? Of course if people believe the election was stolen, they are going to donate to help him fight it. That is not illegal for him to do it.



Has Flynn indicated that Trump put that on the table? Until he does, we can only speculate what the spoke about.

Not assumes stuff and then pretends that they are facts. And that other people "know" the same facts he knows.

He will then judge them accordingly.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

I think legal and illegal is kind of relevant, since Trump is about to be referred to the justice department for prosecution.

I’m not suggesting legal and illegal are not reIevant at all. And I am not as convinced as you are ThisIsMe that DJT’s unconstitutional wrongdoing is necessarily a criminal act that the Justice Dept will pursue. So until the Justice Department
gets involved on any specific legal matters and crimes let’s stick to the constitutional crisis that DJT’s failure to protect and defend the Constitution has incited. We are on a fact finding mission to defend the Constitution and democracy itself. DJT ain’t normal - I don’t know if that’s a crime. BUT WE DESERVE TO KNOW EVERY DETAIL ABOUT THAT ABNORMALITY. We owe it to future generations to preserve American democracy from attacks foreign and domestic.

 

[Faun]

We've got audio on those videos of the scene that took place at the doorway prior to Babbitt being shot, Faun. I've listened to them repeatedly now. I've never heard the Capitol Police officer give a warning before that shot rings out. Would you care to back up his claim that he DID warn the mob to stay back?

Sadly, you're just a liar on the internet. A very bad liar too, btw, as you always get caught. Again... yes, there were warnings...

"A number of police and secret service were saying, 'get back,' 'get down,' 'get out of the way!' She didn't heed the call. And as we kind of raced up to grab people and pull them back, they shot her in the neck and she fell back on me..."​

 

[Faun]

You're now claiming that the door into the House chamber was "unbarricaded"? I've shown pictures of the doors into the House chamber that were in fact barricaded. So why did that particular officer do what nobody else did that entire day...fire upon unarmed protesters without warning?

Lying con, you showed the wrong door.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

ThisIsMe wrote: I don't believe a court would render that method as constitutional, the process by which states could bypass the will of the voters. 21NOV10-POST#929

NFBW wrote: If that were to become the case and your pre-vote, pre-election whataboutism was rendered unconstitutional then as I have stated I would not, I would never support it. So you don’t have a whataboutism point to make here. What else do you want from me? Thus discussion and the Committee is about a “POST-ELECTION” constitutional crisis and threats to our democracy - the very foundation of the America I love. The EASTMAN MEMO is notorious not only because it was written and attempted after an election - it was attempted and pushed by a sitting President AFTER all FIFTY States certified their results. It was an attack on a certified unchangeable (except by generating chaos and unfounded distrust for the system) election result by the President who lost. It was fucking certified by the states that DJT lost.. He did not defend the Democratic process that he swore to defend. FHT attacked it guided by the EASTMAN MEMO. 21NOV10-POST#934

 

[ThisIsMe]

I’m not suggesting legal and illegal are not reIevant at all. And I am not as convinced as you are ThisIsMe that DJT’s unconstitutional wrongdoing is necessarily a criminal act that the Justice Dept will pursue. So until the Justice Department
gets involved on any specific legal matters and crimes let’s stick to the constitutional crisis that DJT’s failure to protect and defend the Constitution has incited. We are on a fact finding mission to defend the Constitution and democracy itself. DJT ain’t normal - I don’t know if that’s a crime. BUT WE DESERVE TO KNOW EVERY DETAIL ABOUT THAT ABNORMALITY. We owe it to future generations to preserve American democracy from attacks foreign and domestic.

And I am not as convinced as you are ThisIsMe that DJT’s unconstitutional wrongdoing is necessarily a criminal act that the Justice Dept will pursue

I don't know what the justice department will do with it once the committee has made their referral, but, I've little doubt that they will make one. It's what I've been talking about in my whole argument about this committee being biased and not looking for the truth. There is no chance this committee doesn't referr Trump to the doj. I just can't imagine that committee walking away from this without doing that. They want him gone so badly that they will make it their mission to make him not eligible to run for office.

I imagine once it's referred to the doj, the pressure from the democrats for action will be pretty big.

 

[ThisIsMe]

ThisIsMe wrote: I don't believe a court would render that method as constitutional, the process by which states could bypass the will of the voters. 21NOV10-POST#929

NFBW wrote: If that were to become the case and your pre-vote, pre-election whataboutism was rendered unconstitutional then as I have stated I would not, I would never support it. So you don’t have a whataboutism point to make here. What else do you want from me? this discussion and the Committee is about a “POST-ELECTION” constitutional crisis and threats to our democracy - the very foundation of the America I live. The EASTMAN MEMO is notorious not only because it’s was written and attempted after an election - it was attempted abnd pushed by a sitting President AFTER all FIFTY States certified their results. It was an attack on a certified unchangeable (except by generating chaos and unfounded distrust for the system) election result by the President who lost. It was fucking certified by the states that DJT lost.. He did not tge Democratic princess that he swore to defend. 21NOV10-POST#9

So you don’t have a whataboutism point to make here

Sure I do. Many on the left have already defended the national popular vote compact, I'm just asking if you do as well.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Sure I do. Many on the left have already defended the national popular vote compact, I'm just asking if you do as well.

Go find them then and take it up with them . There wouid be no election that way if that process was determined to be unconstitutional.

This thread is about a constitutional crisis unnecessarily created AFTER a REAL election and caused by the sitting President who lost. Please participate.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

ThisIsMe wrote: Are both plans, at their core, not the same thing? Do they both not subvert the will of the voter? 21NOV10-POST#929

NFBW wrote: One is a proposal regarding future elections likely never to see the light of day. The other is a private blue-print by a constitutional lawyer advising Trump that may have evolved from right-wing anti/governments pro-Trump militia types starting in December 2020. 21NOV10-POST#938

NFBW wrote: I say the Eastman memo may have evolved from militia types because this was posted on social media in December 22 21NOV10-POST#938

““””On Dec. 12, a poster on the website MyMilitia.com urged violence if senators made official the victory of President-elect Joe Biden. …. "If this does not change, then I advocate, Revolution and adherence to the rules of war," wrote someone identifying themselves as I3DI. "I say, take the hill or die trying “”””

That comes from the following earlier post:

“”””” NFBW wrote: DJT’-s summons to a peaceful but wild protest of the Jan6 transfer of power ceremony on Capitol ‘bunker’ Hill began mid December.

"Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election. Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!" he tweeted on December 18. On Sunday, the president again promoted the protests, writing on Twitter, "I will be there. Historic day!"

Trump tweeted "Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!"

Jan 13, 2021 — The invasion of the U.S. Capitol last Wednesday was stoked in plain sight. … Some interpretations of the POTUS call for his historical wild political orgy was a call to arms Oldestyle Correll …. GIVE ME LIBERTY or GIVE ME DEATH! - - -

Even before the call to orgy tweet , On Dec. 12, a poster on the website MyMilitia.com urged violence if senators made official the victory of President-elect Joe Biden. …. "If this does not change, then I advocate, Revolution and adherence to the rules of war," wrote someone identifying themselves as I3DI. "I say, take the hill or die trying. 21NOV07-POST#864 “””””

 

[Oldestyle]

Do you have special ears that enable you to hear words on the other side of a doorway over and above the loud voices and commotion on your side? Oldestyle ?

To be shot as the idiot Babbitt was she had her upper body stuffed in the only opening that could let sound waves through. You need to think about reality before advancing your stupid arguments into written form.

Babbit was one of potentially tens of thousands of MAGA nut case Trump diehards that showed upon that day as far as that officer knew. He was defending live members of Congress, their staff, his fellow officers, and the second and third in succession to the President. He is a hero without question. Because of who he was defending and he was defending my vote to select who I want to be President - I wouid gladly shake his hand and thank him. In my opinion he didnt shoot enough raging fascists that day and not one of them deserved a warning before they were about to be shot.

What kind of an asshole wants to shoot people without warning for protesting? You people on the left have lost your collective MINDS over this! We literally had months of violent protests by the left in cities all across the country and not a single unarmed protester was shot by a single police officer...we had a protest at the Capitol that lasted a few hours and an unarmed protester is shot at point blank range...yet you idiots think this guy is a "hero" for losing his cool?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

They are not my fantasies.

Yes, your claims that all the "facts" they find will be fake is a fantasy you have employed both to shield the high priests of the cult and to shield yourself. Plain as day. So yes, let's hear more about your fantasy that the testimony under oath will all be perjury.

Or maybe you would like to retract your fantasy?