Perspective: How It All Happened

[TemplarKormac]

Because the government put them there? Yea, by not expanding government to address the alarming growth of medical costs, responsible for as much as 90% of future deficits. We need government to promote preventive care and to limit bureaucratic overhead and anti-competitive pricing by pharmaceutical companies and medical centers.

That is a non sequitur. Obamacare has caused premiums to rise, buddy. You know, the grandfather clause. More to my point than yours. Healthcare alone does not put each person in America in $53,000 of debt. Entitlement programs such as Welfare and Foodstamps do. Unnecessary wars do. Lavish IRS conferences do.

But anyway, your argument is pointless.

OBAMACARE RATE SHOCKER: Committee Surveys Leading Insurance Companies?Obamacare to Cause Premiums to Spike Nationwide, as High as 400 Percent | Energy & Commerce Committee

Sebelius: Some Could See Insurance Premiums Rise - Washington Wire - WSJ

Study: Obamacare to raise individual claim costs by 32 percent | The Daily Caller

Obamacare does nothing to curb healthcare costs bud. I don't know who deluded you into thinking that, but well... that's just...

Damn.

Partisan BULLSHIT.

factcheck.org : FactChecking Health Insurance Premiums

Link from 2011. Since then more findings have come out suggesting Obamacare WILL INDEED CAUSE PREMIUMS TO RISE!

You have problems doing math, mister?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Because the government put them there? Yea, by not expanding government to address the alarming growth of medical costs, responsible for as much as 90% of future deficits. We need government to promote preventive care and to limit bureaucratic overhead and anti-competitive pricing by pharmaceutical companies and medical centers.

That is a non sequitur. Obamacare has caused premiums to rise, buddy. You know, the grandfather clause. More to my point than yours. Healthcare alone does not put each person in America in $53,000 of debt. Entitlement programs such as Welfare and Foodstamps do. Unnecessary wars do. Lavish IRS conferences do.

But anyway, your argument is pointless.

OBAMACARE RATE SHOCKER: Committee Surveys Leading Insurance Companies?Obamacare to Cause Premiums to Spike Nationwide, as High as 400 Percent | Energy & Commerce Committee

Sebelius: Some Could See Insurance Premiums Rise - Washington Wire - WSJ

Study: Obamacare to raise individual claim costs by 32 percent | The Daily Caller

Obamacare does nothing to curb healthcare costs bud. I don't know who deluded you into thinking that, but well... that's just...

Damn.

Partisan BULLSHIT.

factcheck.org : FactChecking Health Insurance Premiums

I'm sorry, what were you saying?

Obamacare drives up insurance premiums in California | The Daily Caller

Ohio Dept. Of Insurance: Obamacare To Increase Individual-Market Health Premiums By 88 Percent - Forbes

http://www.scribd.com/doc/132681050/Cost-of-the-Future-Newly-Insured-under-the-Affordable-Care-Act

Out of your league, buddy.

 

[Bfgrn]

Because the government put them there? Yea, by not expanding government to address the alarming growth of medical costs, responsible for as much as 90% of future deficits. We need government to promote preventive care and to limit bureaucratic overhead and anti-competitive pricing by pharmaceutical companies and medical centers.

That is a non sequitur. Obamacare has caused premiums to rise, buddy. You know, the grandfather clause. More to my point than yours. Healthcare alone does not put each person in America in $53,000 of debt. Entitlement programs such as Welfare and Foodstamps do. Unnecessary wars do. Lavish IRS conferences do.

But anyway, your argument is pointless.

OBAMACARE RATE SHOCKER: Committee Surveys Leading Insurance Companies?Obamacare to Cause Premiums to Spike Nationwide, as High as 400 Percent | Energy & Commerce Committee

Sebelius: Some Could See Insurance Premiums Rise - Washington Wire - WSJ

Study: Obamacare to raise individual claim costs by 32 percent | The Daily Caller

Obamacare does nothing to curb healthcare costs bud. I don't know who deluded you into thinking that, but well... that's just...

Damn.

And, let's remember that healthcare costs where on a decade long downward trend when Obama reversed it.....


.Year *NHE Increase

2001 1493

2002 1638 9.7%

2003 1775 8.3%

2004 1901 7.0%

2005 2030 6.7%

2006 2163 6.5%

2007 2298 6.2%

2008 2406 4.6%

2009 2501 3.9%

2010 2600 3.9%

2011 2700 3.8%

*National Health Expenditures, in $ billions.
http://www.cms.gov/Research-Statist...NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/tables.pdf

Republicans were invited to the table when health care reform was debated. But, they refused. Bush's former speechwriter spilled the beans:

"At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994."

And then we found out from Bruce Bartlett that scholars at the American Enterprise Institute were ordered not to speak to the media (about the health care bill) because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

The Affordable Healthcare Act is almost a carbon copy of what Republicans proposed back in 1994. So we'll just have to wait and see if Republican's were on the right track.

It is not the reform liberals and progressives called for. It is a 'market' based solution.

 

[TemplarKormac]

That is a non sequitur. Obamacare has caused premiums to rise, buddy. You know, the grandfather clause. More to my point than yours. Healthcare alone does not put each person in America in $53,000 of debt. Entitlement programs such as Welfare and Foodstamps do. Unnecessary wars do. Lavish IRS conferences do.

But anyway, your argument is pointless.

OBAMACARE RATE SHOCKER: Committee Surveys Leading Insurance Companies?Obamacare to Cause Premiums to Spike Nationwide, as High as 400 Percent | Energy & Commerce Committee

Sebelius: Some Could See Insurance Premiums Rise - Washington Wire - WSJ

Study: Obamacare to raise individual claim costs by 32 percent | The Daily Caller

Obamacare does nothing to curb healthcare costs bud. I don't know who deluded you into thinking that, but well... that's just...

Damn.

And, let's remember that healthcare costs where on a decade long downward trend when Obama reversed it.....


.Year *NHE Increase

2001 1493

2002 1638 9.7%

2003 1775 8.3%

2004 1901 7.0%

2005 2030 6.7%

2006 2163 6.5%

2007 2298 6.2%

2008 2406 4.6%

2009 2501 3.9%

2010 2600 3.9%

2011 2700 3.8%

*National Health Expenditures, in $ billions.
http://www.cms.gov/Research-Statist...NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/tables.pdf

Republicans were invited to the table when health care reform was debated. But, they refused. Bush's former speechwriter spilled the beans:

"At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994."

And then we found out from Bruce Bartlett that scholars at the American Enterprise Institute were ordered not to speak to the media (about the health care bill) because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

The Affordable Healthcare Act is almost a carbon copy of what Republicans proposed back in 1994. So we'll just have to wait and see if Republican's were on the right track.

It is not the reform liberals and progressives called for. It is a 'market' based solution.

Or, this is nothing but a mere deflection. Republicans had no say so on Obamacare's passage. Nice way to spin it.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Don't bother looking for a rebuttal, you tried again and failed, Bfgrn. That last link of yours was desperate enough. You can't bother doing your own research or taking objective stances on anything. Not to mention, you run from facts that don't support your liberally biased positions. I mean, 2011? Seriously? A lot of projections had yet to be released when that so-called "fact check" was conducted. I am exhausted from pulling an all-nighter working on public relations for my church, and I still found the time and the strength to whip your backside.

This argument is over. You lose.

 

[Foxfyre]

That is a non sequitur. Obamacare has caused premiums to rise, buddy. You know, the grandfather clause. More to my point than yours. Healthcare alone does not put each person in America in $53,000 of debt. Entitlement programs such as Welfare and Foodstamps do. Unnecessary wars do. Lavish IRS conferences do.

But anyway, your argument is pointless.

OBAMACARE RATE SHOCKER: Committee Surveys Leading Insurance Companies?Obamacare to Cause Premiums to Spike Nationwide, as High as 400 Percent | Energy & Commerce Committee

Sebelius: Some Could See Insurance Premiums Rise - Washington Wire - WSJ

Study: Obamacare to raise individual claim costs by 32 percent | The Daily Caller

Obamacare does nothing to curb healthcare costs bud. I don't know who deluded you into thinking that, but well... that's just...

Damn.

Partisan BULLSHIT.

factcheck.org : FactChecking Health Insurance Premiums

Link from 2011. Since then more findings have come out suggesting Obamacare WILL INDEED CAUSE PREMIUMS TO RISE!

You have problems doing math, mister?

Yes, by 1912 the CBO had greatly increased their predictions for the costs of Obamacare by almost a trillion, and many economists are confident they are still low balling the true costs.

How Much Is The Obamacare Mandate Going To Cost You? - Forbes

CBO: ObamaCare Price Tag Shifts from $940 Billion to $1.76 Trillion


In May, Secretary Sebelius wrote a piece for the Huffington Post laying out a glowing future for college graduates because they would start out their adult lives under Obamacare.

Had the secretary wanted to be honest with college graduates her message would look more like this:

Let me be the first to congratulate you on your remarkable achievement, and tell you what the Affordable Care does for (or to) you.

First, the ACA saddles you with a new financial obligation for the rest of your life. I know many of you spent your parents’ savings, and you may have borrowed thousands of dollars in order to get your degree.

And the job market has been lousy for new graduates. But President Obama has kicked off his fifth—or is it his sixth?—jobs tour, which we all hope will be more successful than the previous ones.

Not only will you have to start paying back those loans, but thanks to the ACA you must buy very expensive health coverage. While we are trying to force employers to shoulder most of that burden, the obligation to have coverage rests with you—until you die.

You should also know that the law forces health insurers to charge young people like you more so that older (and usually higher income) people can be charged less. Of course, prior to the law, the vast majority of young, healthy people were able to get health insurance at very low prices precisely because they were young and healthy. But the ACA puts a stop to that practice, and your premiums could rise between 50 percent and 100 percent. Now you too will be part of the president’s vision for “shared responsibility.”

Some of you are thinking, “But I don’t have any money or a job in this lousy economy.” Not to worry, the ACA provides taxpayer-financed subsidies for low-income workers. And if you can’t find a job, ACA expands Medicaid, a welfare program, to millions of Americans.
And you shouldn’t feel bad about having to take welfare even though you have a college degree; that’s the old way of thinking. Today, 49 percent of Americans get some type of subsidy from the government, and ObamaCare—the president actually likes that name—puts another 40 million or so on federal dole.
What Sec. Sebelius Should Be Telling College Graduates About ObamaCare - Forbes

But to be on topic for this thread, Obamacare is already proving to be burdensome, counter productive, excessively expensive, and only a fraction of the rules and regulations to implement it have been written thus far. (The last time I looked there were 13,000 pages of rules and regs and they had just gotten started.)

But the most sinister part of it all is that it completely removes all our liberty and freedom to manage our own healthcare in a way that is best for us and gives government control over a huge segment of the entire economy. Government will be making all the decisions for us and dictating to doctors what they will and will not be allowed to do. It is an unprecedented power grab taking away our rights, choices options, and opportunities as we have never before seen in a single piece of legislation. And once they get away with that, is there any chance that it will stop with healthcare?

The scenario laid out in the OP is not pure fantasy folks. We are watching it happen before our very eyes.

 

[Bfgrn]

And, let's remember that healthcare costs where on a decade long downward trend when Obama reversed it.....


.Year *NHE Increase

2001 1493

2002 1638 9.7%

2003 1775 8.3%

2004 1901 7.0%

2005 2030 6.7%

2006 2163 6.5%

2007 2298 6.2%

2008 2406 4.6%

2009 2501 3.9%

2010 2600 3.9%

2011 2700 3.8%

*National Health Expenditures, in $ billions.
http://www.cms.gov/Research-Statist...NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/tables.pdf

Republicans were invited to the table when health care reform was debated. But, they refused. Bush's former speechwriter spilled the beans:

"At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994."

And then we found out from Bruce Bartlett that scholars at the American Enterprise Institute were ordered not to speak to the media (about the health care bill) because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

The Affordable Healthcare Act is almost a carbon copy of what Republicans proposed back in 1994. So we'll just have to wait and see if Republican's were on the right track.

It is not the reform liberals and progressives called for. It is a 'market' based solution.

Or, this is nothing but a mere deflection. Republicans had no say so on Obamacare's passage. Nice way to spin it.

I am not 'spinning' anything. Those were not my words, they were the words of David Frum - Republican and former speechwriter for George W. Bush

"At the beginning of this process we (Republicans) made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994."



If you are interested in the truth, invest a half hour listening to Wendell Potter, he was VP of corporate communications at CIGNA for 15 years. It is very revealing and enlightening.

Wendell Potter on Profits Before Patients | PBS

Check out the part about a memo, from Frank Luntz. He's the Republican strategist who had written the script for opponents of health care reform. "First," he says, "you have to pretend to support it. Then use phrases like, "government takeover," "delayed care is denied care," "consequences of rationing," "bureaucrats, not doctors prescribing medicine." That was a memo, by Frank Luntz, to the opponents of health care reform in this debate. Now watch how Republicans parrot those comments.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER: The forthcoming plan from Democratic leaders will make health care more expensive, limit treatments, ration care, and put bureaucrats in charge of medical decisions rather than patients and doctors.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL: Americans need to realize that when someone says "government option," what could really occur is a government takeover that soon could lead to government bureaucrats denying and delaying care, and telling Americans what kind of care they can have.

SEN. JON KYL: Washington run healthcare would diminish Americans' access to quality care, leading to denials, shortages and long delays for treatment.

REP. JOE WILSON: How will a government run health plan not lead to the same rationing of care that we have seen in other countries?

REP. TOM PRICE: We don't want to put the government, we don't want to put bureaucrats between a doctor and a patient.

If you can be well without health, you may be happy without virtue.
Edmund Burke

 

[TemplarKormac]

Republicans were invited to the table when health care reform was debated. But, they refused. Bush's former speechwriter spilled the beans:

"At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994."

And then we found out from Bruce Bartlett that scholars at the American Enterprise Institute were ordered not to speak to the media (about the health care bill) because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

The Affordable Healthcare Act is almost a carbon copy of what Republicans proposed back in 1994. So we'll just have to wait and see if Republican's were on the right track.

It is not the reform liberals and progressives called for. It is a 'market' based solution.

Or, this is nothing but a mere deflection. Republicans had no say so on Obamacare's passage. Nice way to spin it.

I am not 'spinning' anything. Those were not my words, they were the words of David Frum - Republican and former speechwriter for George W. Bush

"At the beginning of this process we (Republicans) made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994."



If you are interested in the truth, invest a half hour listening to Wendell Potter, he was VP of corporate communications at CIGNA for 15 years. It is very revealing and enlightening.

Wendell Potter on Profits Before Patients | PBS

Check out the part about a memo, from Frank Luntz. He's the Republican strategist who had written the script for opponents of health care reform. "First," he says, "you have to pretend to support it. Then use phrases like, "government takeover," "delayed care is denied care," "consequences of rationing," "bureaucrats, not doctors prescribing medicine." That was a memo, by Frank Luntz, to the opponents of health care reform in this debate. Now watch how Republicans parrot those comments.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER: The forthcoming plan from Democratic leaders will make health care more expensive, limit treatments, ration care, and put bureaucrats in charge of medical decisions rather than patients and doctors.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL: Americans need to realize that when someone says "government option," what could really occur is a government takeover that soon could lead to government bureaucrats denying and delaying care, and telling Americans what kind of care they can have.

SEN. JON KYL: Washington run healthcare would diminish Americans' access to quality care, leading to denials, shortages and long delays for treatment.

REP. JOE WILSON: How will a government run health plan not lead to the same rationing of care that we have seen in other countries?

REP. TOM PRICE: We don't want to put the government, we don't want to put bureaucrats between a doctor and a patient.

If you can be well without health, you may be happy without virtue.
Edmund Burke

The next link from PBS, is liberally biased. I will not fall for any more of this hackery from you. You need to enlighten yourself on more than just the Liberal demagoguery coming from your own party.

 

[Bfgrn]

Partisan BULLSHIT.

factcheck.org : FactChecking Health Insurance Premiums

Link from 2011. Since then more findings have come out suggesting Obamacare WILL INDEED CAUSE PREMIUMS TO RISE!

You have problems doing math, mister?

Yes, by 1912 the CBO had greatly increased their predictions for the costs of Obamacare by almost a trillion, and many economists are confident they are still low balling the true costs.

How Much Is The Obamacare Mandate Going To Cost You? - Forbes

CBO: ObamaCare Price Tag Shifts from $940 Billion to $1.76 Trillion


In May, Secretary Sebelius wrote a piece for the Huffington Post laying out a glowing future for college graduates because they would start out their adult lives under Obamacare.

Had the secretary wanted to be honest with college graduates her message would look more like this:

Let me be the first to congratulate you on your remarkable achievement, and tell you what the Affordable Care does for (or to) you.

First, the ACA saddles you with a new financial obligation for the rest of your life. I know many of you spent your parents’ savings, and you may have borrowed thousands of dollars in order to get your degree.

And the job market has been lousy for new graduates. But President Obama has kicked off his fifth—or is it his sixth?—jobs tour, which we all hope will be more successful than the previous ones.

Not only will you have to start paying back those loans, but thanks to the ACA you must buy very expensive health coverage. While we are trying to force employers to shoulder most of that burden, the obligation to have coverage rests with you—until you die.

You should also know that the law forces health insurers to charge young people like you more so that older (and usually higher income) people can be charged less. Of course, prior to the law, the vast majority of young, healthy people were able to get health insurance at very low prices precisely because they were young and healthy. But the ACA puts a stop to that practice, and your premiums could rise between 50 percent and 100 percent. Now you too will be part of the president’s vision for “shared responsibility.”

Some of you are thinking, “But I don’t have any money or a job in this lousy economy.” Not to worry, the ACA provides taxpayer-financed subsidies for low-income workers. And if you can’t find a job, ACA expands Medicaid, a welfare program, to millions of Americans.
And you shouldn’t feel bad about having to take welfare even though you have a college degree; that’s the old way of thinking. Today, 49 percent of Americans get some type of subsidy from the government, and ObamaCare—the president actually likes that name—puts another 40 million or so on federal dole.
What Sec. Sebelius Should Be Telling College Graduates About ObamaCare - Forbes

But to be on topic for this thread, Obamacare is already proving to be burdensome, counter productive, excessively expensive, and only a fraction of the rules and regulations to implement it have been written thus far. (The last time I looked there were 13,000 pages of rules and regs and they had just gotten started.)

But the most sinister part of it all is that it completely removes all our liberty and freedom to manage our own healthcare in a way that is best for us and gives government control over a huge segment of the entire economy. Government will be making all the decisions for us and dictating to doctors what they will and will not be allowed to do. It is an unprecedented power grab taking away our rights, choices options, and opportunities as we have never before seen in a single piece of legislation. And once they get away with that, is there any chance that it will stop with healthcare?

The scenario laid out in the OP is not pure fantasy folks. We are watching it happen before our very eyes.

You folks are brainwashed parrots. You are being manipulated by think tanks and front groups who do NOT want to reform health insurance. They want Wall Street investors to continue to control health insurance for PROFITS, no for people.

 

[Redfish]

That is a non sequitur. Obamacare has caused premiums to rise, buddy. You know, the grandfather clause. More to my point than yours. Healthcare alone does not put each person in America in $53,000 of debt. Entitlement programs such as Welfare and Foodstamps do. Unnecessary wars do. Lavish IRS conferences do.

But anyway, your argument is pointless.

OBAMACARE RATE SHOCKER: Committee Surveys Leading Insurance Companies?Obamacare to Cause Premiums to Spike Nationwide, as High as 400 Percent | Energy & Commerce Committee

Sebelius: Some Could See Insurance Premiums Rise - Washington Wire - WSJ

Study: Obamacare to raise individual claim costs by 32 percent | The Daily Caller

Obamacare does nothing to curb healthcare costs bud. I don't know who deluded you into thinking that, but well... that's just...

Damn.

And, let's remember that healthcare costs where on a decade long downward trend when Obama reversed it.....


.Year *NHE Increase

2001 1493

2002 1638 9.7%

2003 1775 8.3%

2004 1901 7.0%

2005 2030 6.7%

2006 2163 6.5%

2007 2298 6.2%

2008 2406 4.6%

2009 2501 3.9%

2010 2600 3.9%

2011 2700 3.8%

*National Health Expenditures, in $ billions.
http://www.cms.gov/Research-Statist...NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/tables.pdf

Republicans were invited to the table when health care reform was debated. But, they refused. Bush's former speechwriter spilled the beans:

"At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994."

And then we found out from Bruce Bartlett that scholars at the American Enterprise Institute were ordered not to speak to the media (about the health care bill) because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

The Affordable Healthcare Act is almost a carbon copy of what Republicans proposed back in 1994. So we'll just have to wait and see if Republican's were on the right track.

It is not the reform liberals and progressives called for. It is a 'market' based solution.

liarthe obamacare bill was passed by dems only in the middle of the night before anyone had time to read it. no floor debate was allowed, no GOP amendments were allowed to be discussed. No republican was invited to the dem-only closed door sessions where this piece of crap bill was written. This disaster of a bill belongs solely to the dems and obozo. It is the worst piece of legislation in the history of this country.

 

[Foxfyre]

Link from 2011. Since then more findings have come out suggesting Obamacare WILL INDEED CAUSE PREMIUMS TO RISE!

You have problems doing math, mister?

Yes, by 1912 the CBO had greatly increased their predictions for the costs of Obamacare by almost a trillion, and many economists are confident they are still low balling the true costs.

How Much Is The Obamacare Mandate Going To Cost You? - Forbes

CBO: ObamaCare Price Tag Shifts from $940 Billion to $1.76 Trillion


In May, Secretary Sebelius wrote a piece for the Huffington Post laying out a glowing future for college graduates because they would start out their adult lives under Obamacare.

Had the secretary wanted to be honest with college graduates her message would look more like this:

Let me be the first to congratulate you on your remarkable achievement, and tell you what the Affordable Care does for (or to) you.

First, the ACA saddles you with a new financial obligation for the rest of your life. I know many of you spent your parents’ savings, and you may have borrowed thousands of dollars in order to get your degree.

And the job market has been lousy for new graduates. But President Obama has kicked off his fifth—or is it his sixth?—jobs tour, which we all hope will be more successful than the previous ones.

Not only will you have to start paying back those loans, but thanks to the ACA you must buy very expensive health coverage. While we are trying to force employers to shoulder most of that burden, the obligation to have coverage rests with you—until you die.

You should also know that the law forces health insurers to charge young people like you more so that older (and usually higher income) people can be charged less. Of course, prior to the law, the vast majority of young, healthy people were able to get health insurance at very low prices precisely because they were young and healthy. But the ACA puts a stop to that practice, and your premiums could rise between 50 percent and 100 percent. Now you too will be part of the president’s vision for “shared responsibility.”

Some of you are thinking, “But I don’t have any money or a job in this lousy economy.” Not to worry, the ACA provides taxpayer-financed subsidies for low-income workers. And if you can’t find a job, ACA expands Medicaid, a welfare program, to millions of Americans.
And you shouldn’t feel bad about having to take welfare even though you have a college degree; that’s the old way of thinking. Today, 49 percent of Americans get some type of subsidy from the government, and ObamaCare—the president actually likes that name—puts another 40 million or so on federal dole.
What Sec. Sebelius Should Be Telling College Graduates About ObamaCare - Forbes

But to be on topic for this thread, Obamacare is already proving to be burdensome, counter productive, excessively expensive, and only a fraction of the rules and regulations to implement it have been written thus far. (The last time I looked there were 13,000 pages of rules and regs and they had just gotten started.)

But the most sinister part of it all is that it completely removes all our liberty and freedom to manage our own healthcare in a way that is best for us and gives government control over a huge segment of the entire economy. Government will be making all the decisions for us and dictating to doctors what they will and will not be allowed to do. It is an unprecedented power grab taking away our rights, choices options, and opportunities as we have never before seen in a single piece of legislation. And once they get away with that, is there any chance that it will stop with healthcare?

The scenario laid out in the OP is not pure fantasy folks. We are watching it happen before our very eyes.

You folks are brainwashed parrots. You are being manipulated by think tanks and front groups who do NOT want to reform health insurance. They want Wall Street investors to continue to control health insurance for PROFITS, no for people.

Spoken like an obedient and thoroughly indoctrinated little Marxist.

Instead of accusing us of being brainwashed, how about finding a credible source that can dispute the opinion and facts that I posted and linked? THEN you might have some credibility in questioning my motives or those of others who do not want to hand over their liberties, choices, options, and opportunities to an every more over reaching government that does NOT have our best interests at heart.

 

[Bfgrn]

Or, this is nothing but a mere deflection. Republicans had no say so on Obamacare's passage. Nice way to spin it.

I am not 'spinning' anything. Those were not my words, they were the words of David Frum - Republican and former speechwriter for George W. Bush

"At the beginning of this process we (Republicans) made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994."



If you are interested in the truth, invest a half hour listening to Wendell Potter, he was VP of corporate communications at CIGNA for 15 years. It is very revealing and enlightening.

Wendell Potter on Profits Before Patients | PBS

Check out the part about a memo, from Frank Luntz. He's the Republican strategist who had written the script for opponents of health care reform. "First," he says, "you have to pretend to support it. Then use phrases like, "government takeover," "delayed care is denied care," "consequences of rationing," "bureaucrats, not doctors prescribing medicine." That was a memo, by Frank Luntz, to the opponents of health care reform in this debate. Now watch how Republicans parrot those comments.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER: The forthcoming plan from Democratic leaders will make health care more expensive, limit treatments, ration care, and put bureaucrats in charge of medical decisions rather than patients and doctors.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL: Americans need to realize that when someone says "government option," what could really occur is a government takeover that soon could lead to government bureaucrats denying and delaying care, and telling Americans what kind of care they can have.

SEN. JON KYL: Washington run healthcare would diminish Americans' access to quality care, leading to denials, shortages and long delays for treatment.

REP. JOE WILSON: How will a government run health plan not lead to the same rationing of care that we have seen in other countries?

REP. TOM PRICE: We don't want to put the government, we don't want to put bureaucrats between a doctor and a patient.

If you can be well without health, you may be happy without virtue.
Edmund Burke

The next link from PBS, is liberally biased. I will not fall for any more of this hackery from you. You need to enlighten yourself on more than just the Liberal demagoguery coming from your own party.

Thanks for proving you are not interested in the truth. The man spent 15 years as an executive VP at CIGNA, one of the largest in insurance corporations in the country. He is willing to let you in on the scam. But instead, you choose to remain blind.

Liberals are well aware of the dangers of government. But you people on the right are totally blind to the dangers of huge corporations and cartel. But for conservatives, there is only ONE entity you people fear. Ironic, it is the very entity that our founding fathers created to address grievances, prevent malfeasance and protect We, the People.

 

[Redfish]

I am not 'spinning' anything. Those were not my words, they were the words of David Frum - Republican and former speechwriter for George W. Bush

"At the beginning of this process we (Republicans) made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994."



If you are interested in the truth, invest a half hour listening to Wendell Potter, he was VP of corporate communications at CIGNA for 15 years. It is very revealing and enlightening.

Wendell Potter on Profits Before Patients | PBS

Check out the part about a memo, from Frank Luntz. He's the Republican strategist who had written the script for opponents of health care reform. "First," he says, "you have to pretend to support it. Then use phrases like, "government takeover," "delayed care is denied care," "consequences of rationing," "bureaucrats, not doctors prescribing medicine." That was a memo, by Frank Luntz, to the opponents of health care reform in this debate. Now watch how Republicans parrot those comments.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER: The forthcoming plan from Democratic leaders will make health care more expensive, limit treatments, ration care, and put bureaucrats in charge of medical decisions rather than patients and doctors.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL: Americans need to realize that when someone says "government option," what could really occur is a government takeover that soon could lead to government bureaucrats denying and delaying care, and telling Americans what kind of care they can have.

SEN. JON KYL: Washington run healthcare would diminish Americans' access to quality care, leading to denials, shortages and long delays for treatment.

REP. JOE WILSON: How will a government run health plan not lead to the same rationing of care that we have seen in other countries?

REP. TOM PRICE: We don't want to put the government, we don't want to put bureaucrats between a doctor and a patient.

If you can be well without health, you may be happy without virtue.
Edmund Burke

The next link from PBS, is liberally biased. I will not fall for any more of this hackery from you. You need to enlighten yourself on more than just the Liberal demagoguery coming from your own party.

Thanks for proving you are not interested in the truth. The man spent 15 years as an executive VP at CIGNA, one of the largest in insurance corporations in the country. He is willing to let you in on the scam. But instead, you choose to remain blind.

Liberals are well aware of the dangers of government. But you people on the right are totally blind to the dangers of huge corporations and cartel. But for conservatives, there is only ONE entity you people fear. Ironic, it is the very entity that our founding fathers created to address grievances, prevent malfeasance and protect We, the People.

neither government or corporations are inherently evil. Its the people who run them that are sometimes evil. Root out the bad people, the institutions are just fine.

 

[Bfgrn]

Yes, by 1912 the CBO had greatly increased their predictions for the costs of Obamacare by almost a trillion, and many economists are confident they are still low balling the true costs.

How Much Is The Obamacare Mandate Going To Cost You? - Forbes

CBO: ObamaCare Price Tag Shifts from $940 Billion to $1.76 Trillion


In May, Secretary Sebelius wrote a piece for the Huffington Post laying out a glowing future for college graduates because they would start out their adult lives under Obamacare.

Had the secretary wanted to be honest with college graduates her message would look more like this:



But to be on topic for this thread, Obamacare is already proving to be burdensome, counter productive, excessively expensive, and only a fraction of the rules and regulations to implement it have been written thus far. (The last time I looked there were 13,000 pages of rules and regs and they had just gotten started.)

But the most sinister part of it all is that it completely removes all our liberty and freedom to manage our own healthcare in a way that is best for us and gives government control over a huge segment of the entire economy. Government will be making all the decisions for us and dictating to doctors what they will and will not be allowed to do. It is an unprecedented power grab taking away our rights, choices options, and opportunities as we have never before seen in a single piece of legislation. And once they get away with that, is there any chance that it will stop with healthcare?

The scenario laid out in the OP is not pure fantasy folks. We are watching it happen before our very eyes.

You folks are brainwashed parrots. You are being manipulated by think tanks and front groups who do NOT want to reform health insurance. They want Wall Street investors to continue to control health insurance for PROFITS, no for people.

Spoken like an obedient and thoroughly indoctrinated little Marxist.

Instead of accusing us of being brainwashed, how about finding a credible source that can dispute the opinion and facts that I posted and linked? THEN you might have some credibility in questioning my motives or those of others who do not want to hand over their liberties, choices, options, and opportunities to an every more over reaching government that does NOT have our best interests at heart.

Watch this and then we'll discuss who is credible.

Wendell Potter on Profits Before Patients | PBS

Your author: health policy adviser to the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC)

ALEC is a corporate bill mill. It is not just a lobby or a front group; it is much more powerful than that. Through ALEC, corporations hand state legislators their wishlists to benefit their bottom line. Corporations fund almost all of ALEC's operations. They pay for a seat on ALEC task forces where corporate lobbyists and special interest reps vote with elected officials to approve “model” bills.

 

[PoliticalChic]

That is a non sequitur. Obamacare has caused premiums to rise, buddy. You know, the grandfather clause. More to my point than yours. Healthcare alone does not put each person in America in $53,000 of debt. Entitlement programs such as Welfare and Foodstamps do. Unnecessary wars do. Lavish IRS conferences do.

But anyway, your argument is pointless.

OBAMACARE RATE SHOCKER: Committee Surveys Leading Insurance Companies?Obamacare to Cause Premiums to Spike Nationwide, as High as 400 Percent | Energy & Commerce Committee

Sebelius: Some Could See Insurance Premiums Rise - Washington Wire - WSJ

Study: Obamacare to raise individual claim costs by 32 percent | The Daily Caller

Obamacare does nothing to curb healthcare costs bud. I don't know who deluded you into thinking that, but well... that's just...

Damn.

And, let's remember that healthcare costs where on a decade long downward trend when Obama reversed it.....


.Year *NHE Increase

2001 1493

2002 1638 9.7%

2003 1775 8.3%

2004 1901 7.0%

2005 2030 6.7%

2006 2163 6.5%

2007 2298 6.2%

2008 2406 4.6%

2009 2501 3.9%

2010 2600 3.9%

2011 2700 3.8%

*National Health Expenditures, in $ billions.
http://www.cms.gov/Research-Statist...NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/tables.pdf

Republicans were invited to the table when health care reform was debated. But, they refused. Bush's former speechwriter spilled the beans:

"At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994."

And then we found out from Bruce Bartlett that scholars at the American Enterprise Institute were ordered not to speak to the media (about the health care bill) because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

The Affordable Healthcare Act is almost a carbon copy of what Republicans proposed back in 1994. So we'll just have to wait and see if Republican's were on the right track.

It is not the reform liberals and progressives called for. It is a 'market' based solution.

"Ohio Dept. Of Insurance: Obamacare To Increase Individual-Market Health Premiums By 88 Percent"
Ohio Dept. Of Insurance: Obamacare To Increase Individual-Market Health Premiums By 88 Percent - Forbes

 

[Foxfyre]

You folks are brainwashed parrots. You are being manipulated by think tanks and front groups who do NOT want to reform health insurance. They want Wall Street investors to continue to control health insurance for PROFITS, no for people.

Spoken like an obedient and thoroughly indoctrinated little Marxist.

Instead of accusing us of being brainwashed, how about finding a credible source that can dispute the opinion and facts that I posted and linked? THEN you might have some credibility in questioning my motives or those of others who do not want to hand over their liberties, choices, options, and opportunities to an every more over reaching government that does NOT have our best interests at heart.

Watch this and then we'll discuss who is credible.

Wendell Potter on Profits Before Patients | PBS

Your author: health policy adviser to the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC)

ALEC is a corporate bill mill. It is not just a lobby or a front group; it is much more powerful than that. Through ALEC, corporations hand state legislators their wishlists to benefit their bottom line. Corporations fund almost all of ALEC's operations. They pay for a seat on ALEC task forces where corporate lobbyists and special interest reps vote with elected officials to approve “model” bills.

When that program aired Obamacare was still in the talking phase. It wasn't even a bill yet, much less one that Congress had passed so they could find out what was in it.

So let's get real. Again I ask you to provide any credible source that can dispute the facts included in those links I provided or that PC just provided. Authoritarian government have been doing really bad things 'for the good of the people' for a very long time now. And our government has done a very bad thing with Obamacare no matter how much the uneducated and gullible want to believe that it is wonderful.

 

[Bfgrn]

Spoken like an obedient and thoroughly indoctrinated little Marxist.

Instead of accusing us of being brainwashed, how about finding a credible source that can dispute the opinion and facts that I posted and linked? THEN you might have some credibility in questioning my motives or those of others who do not want to hand over their liberties, choices, options, and opportunities to an every more over reaching government that does NOT have our best interests at heart.

Watch this and then we'll discuss who is credible.

Wendell Potter on Profits Before Patients | PBS

Your author: health policy adviser to the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC)

ALEC is a corporate bill mill. It is not just a lobby or a front group; it is much more powerful than that. Through ALEC, corporations hand state legislators their wishlists to benefit their bottom line. Corporations fund almost all of ALEC's operations. They pay for a seat on ALEC task forces where corporate lobbyists and special interest reps vote with elected officials to approve “model” bills.

When that program aired Obamacare was still in the talking phase. It wasn't even a bill yet, much less one that Congress had passed so they could find out what was in it.

So let's get real. Again I ask you to provide any credible source that can dispute the facts included in those links I provided or that PC just provided. Authoritarian government have been doing really bad things 'for the good of the people' for a very long time now. And our government has done a very bad thing with Obamacare no matter how much the uneducated and gullible want to believe that it is wonderful.

Translation...you're not going to watch it...

 

[Foxfyre]

Watch this and then we'll discuss who is credible.

Wendell Potter on Profits Before Patients | PBS

Your author: health policy adviser to the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC)

ALEC is a corporate bill mill. It is not just a lobby or a front group; it is much more powerful than that. Through ALEC, corporations hand state legislators their wishlists to benefit their bottom line. Corporations fund almost all of ALEC's operations. They pay for a seat on ALEC task forces where corporate lobbyists and special interest reps vote with elected officials to approve “model” bills.

When that program aired Obamacare was still in the talking phase. It wasn't even a bill yet, much less one that Congress had passed so they could find out what was in it.

So let's get real. Again I ask you to provide any credible source that can dispute the facts included in those links I provided or that PC just provided. Authoritarian government have been doing really bad things 'for the good of the people' for a very long time now. And our government has done a very bad thing with Obamacare no matter how much the uneducated and gullible want to believe that it is wonderful.

Translation...you're not going to watch it...

I did watch it. And it did not dispute a single fact in any of those links I posted.

 

[Bfgrn]

The next link from PBS, is liberally biased. I will not fall for any more of this hackery from you. You need to enlighten yourself on more than just the Liberal demagoguery coming from your own party.

Thanks for proving you are not interested in the truth. The man spent 15 years as an executive VP at CIGNA, one of the largest in insurance corporations in the country. He is willing to let you in on the scam. But instead, you choose to remain blind.

Liberals are well aware of the dangers of government. But you people on the right are totally blind to the dangers of huge corporations and cartel. But for conservatives, there is only ONE entity you people fear. Ironic, it is the very entity that our founding fathers created to address grievances, prevent malfeasance and protect We, the People.

neither government or corporations are inherently evil. Its the people who run them that are sometimes evil. Root out the bad people, the institutions are just fine.

I didn't say corporations were evil. I said:

Liberals are well aware of the dangers of government. But you people on the right are totally blind to the dangers of huge corporations and cartel. But for conservatives, there is only ONE entity you people fear. Ironic, it is the very entity that our founding fathers created to address grievances, prevent malfeasance and protect We, the People.

Corporations are a good thing. They encourage us to take risks. They maximize wealth. They create jobs. They're a great thing, but they should not be running our government. The reason for that is they don't have the same aspirations for America that you and I do. A corporation does not want democracy. It does not want free markets, it wants profits, and the best way for it to get profits is to use our campaign-finance system -- which is just a system of legalized bribery -- to get their stakes, their hooks into a public official and then use that public official to dismantle the marketplace to give them a competitive advantage and then to privatize the commons, to steal the commonwealth, to liquidate public assets for cash, to plunder, to steal from the rest of us.

And that doesn't mean corporations are a bad thing. It just means they're amoral, and we have to recognize that and not let them into the political process. Let them do their thing, but they should not be participating in our political process.

This is why throughout our history our most visionary political leaders -- Republican and Democrat -- have been warning the American public against domination by corporate power.

The Bush White House has done a great job of persuading a gullible press and the American public that the big threat to American democracy is big government. Well, yeah, big government is a threat ultimately, but it is dwarfed by the threat of excessive corporate power and the corrosive impact that has on our democracy. And you know, as I said, you look at all the great political leaders in this country and the central theme is that we have to be cautious about, we have to avoid, the domination of our government by corporate power.

Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, said that America would never be destroyed by a foreign power but he warned that our political institutions, our democratic institutions, would be subverted by malefactors of great wealth, who would erode them from within. Dwight Eisenhower, another Republican, in his most famous speech, warned America against domination by the military industrial complex.

Abraham Lincoln, the greatest Republican in our history, said during the height of the Civil War "I have the South in front of me and I have the bankers behind me. And for my country, I fear the bankers more." Franklin Roosevelt said during World War II that the domination of government by corporate power is "the essence of fascism" and Benito Mussolini -- who had an insider's view of that process -- said the same thing. Essentially, he complained that fascism should not be called fascism. It should be called corporatism because it was the merger of state and corporate power. And what we have to understand as Americans is that the domination of business by government is called communism. The domination of government by business is called fascism. And our job is to walk that narrow trail in between, which is free-market capitalism and democracy. And keep big government at bay with our right hand and corporate power at bay with our left.

 

[ClosedCaption]

The next link from PBS, is liberally biased. I will not fall for any more of this hackery from you. You need to enlighten yourself on more than just the Liberal demagoguery coming from your own party.

Thanks for proving you are not interested in the truth. The man spent 15 years as an executive VP at CIGNA, one of the largest in insurance corporations in the country. He is willing to let you in on the scam. But instead, you choose to remain blind.

Liberals are well aware of the dangers of government. But you people on the right are totally blind to the dangers of huge corporations and cartel. But for conservatives, there is only ONE entity you people fear. Ironic, it is the very entity that our founding fathers created to address grievances, prevent malfeasance and protect We, the People.

neither government or corporations are inherently evil. Its the people who run them that are sometimes evil. Root out the bad people, the institutions are just fine.

Just get rid of all the bad people lol. What a grand idea!