Republicans..The real allies of African Americans

[daveman]

But you are not a Republican, daveman, so you don't count.

You don't get to dictate what people believe, boy. That's what leftists do, by the way.

Obama has failed in part because he has not satisified his base. We are going to fail in the GOP because we will not take care of the health care problem either. The fact remains that both parties will fail until they deal with it.

Now, that is a deflection. The OP is that GOP is the real ally of blacks: not since Nixon.

Even while you claim to be a Republican, you spout leftist talking points.

 

[Dragon]

Jake, I have to agree you don't seem much like a Republican.

Except maybe one from sixty years ago.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Many of the older GOP are much like me. We abhor the Paul Ryan type clones that simply spout the old class warfare nonsense. We understand that we are not going back to a pre-1964 society, that we have to work with women and minorities to address their claims better, that DADT and DOMA are better off going way forever, and most importantly, to end the Progressive right-wing neo-conservatism of the Bushies that nearly broke our economy along with the stupid spend-big programs of McCain and education cartel.

We need better leaders. Romney is one, who demonstrated compassion and health care can co-exist in Massachusetts, that people are more important than businesses. Perry is another, who is far more progressive than the far right wing has any idea.

Perry and Romney suffer the same problem as does Obama: they are too beholdedn to Big Business.

If we continue to define ourselves by the davemans, etc., the Dems will win the class warfare.

 

[daveman]

Many of the older GOP are much like me. We abhor the Paul Ryan type clones that simply spout the old class warfare nonsense. We understand that we are not going back to a pre-1964 society, that we have to work with women and minorities to address their claims better, that DADT and DOMA are better off going way forever, and most importantly, to end the Progressive right-wing neo-conservatism of the Bushies that nearly broke our economy along with the stupid spend-big programs of McCain and education cartel.

We need better leaders. Romney is one, who demonstrated compassion and health care can co-exist in Massachusetts, that people are more important than businesses. Perry is another, who is far more progressive than the far right wing has any idea.

Perry and Romney suffer the same problem as does Obama: they are too beholdedn to Big Business.

If we continue to define ourselves by the davemans, etc., the Dems will win the class warfare.

No one believes your crap.

 

[JakeStarkey]

daveman, no one cares what you believe or think, unless it is a Crusader or an OddOne or a bigrebnc.

You guys simply don't count in the party, other than we want your votes. Watch the primary fights next year as we finally can force some of you Hard Rights out of power.

Been a long time coming, going to be worth it.

 

[Jroc]

what a bunch of liberal bull. You've got to be one of Jake's friends "from the U"

Never met him before, but you're going to find that well-educated people tend to lean left. Reality has a liberal bias.

Liberty means liberty for all men not only to people to whom the government defines as deserving of it

Precisely. All liberals believe exactly that, always have, and always will. (Nowadays, we would say "men AND women." Feminism is a more recent development than classical liberalism, though, and those old liberals were often not very liberal in that regard.) Also, all liberals believe that the greatest danger to liberty is individuals holding too much power. That's true whether the power comes from government or outside it. To prevent one person holding too much power from the government, we champion separation of powers, democratic accountability, and protection of individual rights. To prevent one person holding too much power from outside the government, we champion regulation of business, leveling of wealth, and protection of the rights of working people. It's all in service to the same goal.



Why don't you get specific here, and I will show you how those "expansions of government" are in service to the same ends as the restraints of government that liberals also believe in.

Truth is, liberals are not believers in either big government or limited government as an end in itself, but will use either one as appropriate to protect liberty and promote equality.

I know what the law says and if you are forced to send a person back into slavery once he is free that is legalized slavery in my book. And infringing on the rights of the non slave states.

Well, I would agree as far as my own values are concerned, naturally -- I am hardly an advocate of slavery! But you have to understand that in those days, slavery was a burning issue, not a dead one. If you advocated for abolishing it, you were a liberal (on that issue); if you wanted to preserve it you were a conservative. Today, of course, you won't find conservatives in favor of chattel slavery, because the issue is dead; our side won, and it is now a universal value rather than a political issue.

There's not much point in quoting liberals of the time, like Frederick Douglass, against the institution of slavery. I fully agree with the man, and with Lincoln that the nation could not ultimately remain half slave and half free; I consider the Fugitive Slave Act, and all other attempts to compromise around the issue, to have been futile, and I think the 600,000 casualties suffered in the Civil War pretty much proves that.

My only point in connection with this is that the Republican Party, which in its inception was an anti-slavery party, was therefore the liberal party at that time. It was the Democrats -- the ones in the North who didn't want to rock the boat or make such a radical change as abolishing slavery, as well as the ones in the South who were so determined to preserve the institution that they sundered the union -- who were the conservatives.

I never said they were exactly the same but gernally Real conservative Republicans stand for liberty and liberal Dems stand for central planning and bigger more powerfull federal government

"Real conservative Republicans" certainly do not stand for MY liberty. Maybe they stand for the liberty of my boss (if I had a boss) -- at my expense, by failing to protect my rights as an employee. Maybe they stand for the liberty of big corporations to maximize their profits -- at the expense of their employees outsourced out of a job, or of the communities suffering their environmental degradations. Maybe they stand for the liberty of the very rich to accumulate as much private fortune as possible -- at the expense of those who would benefit from having some of that accumulated money invested in job-creating wealth-producing ventures and spread around a bit.

"Liberty" means nothing unless one defines whose liberty to do what one is talking about. Often, one person's liberty means another person's enslavement. For an obvious example, one person's liberty to own slaves cannot coexist with another person's liberty not to be a slave. Extrapolate that extreme example out to anything else: person A's liberty to oppress person B is incompatible with person B's freedom from oppression.

Conservatives, in such conflicts, stand with person A. Liberals stand with person B. What that means in terms of "expansion of government" depends on the exact circumstances. When it's the government that A is using to oppress B, then the power of the government to do that needs to be restrained. But when A is using his own private power to oppress B, and the government can be used to restrain A, then it should be so used.

The equation "liberal = big government" is completely simplistic and, as stated, not true. It isn't liberals who have generally championed the huge, overextended military establishment we have today, for example. It isn't liberals who want to re-criminalize abortion and in other ways have the government butt into people's private lives.

On the other hand, it is liberals who want to use government to regulate business so as to prevent both abuses against people's rights and the kind of collapse we had in '08. So liberals and conservatives both like big government in some areas and dislike it in others. The common factor lies elsewhere, and size of government may not be used as a definition.

For some reason this guy thinks these long bloviating post are impressive. The title of this thread is "Republicans..The real allies of African Americans" which you cannot dispute. Republicans were liberal. Democrats were conservative blah…Blah…blah..The facts are that Republicans have been throughout history been the true allies of African Americans, and as you see from those Lincoln quotes he was nothing like the liberals of today. Today’s liberals are as your post proves, want to demonize business and the jobs creators so as to attempt to redistribute wealth and even out outcomes, but that is not what this thread is about.

This thread is about what the title says and the only thing that dems have done for blacks since the founding of the party was LBJ helping to pass the ’64 civil rights act, that’s pretty much it. All the rest of his liberal agenda as failed the black community and helped to destroy the black family, of course he got help with that from the race hustlers. Sad really, instead of working to build up the black population in this country they make money off producing victims and these victims are part of the base of the democrat party congradulations. The current state of African Americans in this country can be traced directly back to the democrat party and the policies of todays liberals

 

[rightwinger]

what a bunch of liberal bull. You've got to be one of Jake's friends "from the U"

Never met him before, but you're going to find that well-educated people tend to lean left. Reality has a liberal bias.



Precisely. All liberals believe exactly that, always have, and always will. (Nowadays, we would say "men AND women." Feminism is a more recent development than classical liberalism, though, and those old liberals were often not very liberal in that regard.) Also, all liberals believe that the greatest danger to liberty is individuals holding too much power. That's true whether the power comes from government or outside it. To prevent one person holding too much power from the government, we champion separation of powers, democratic accountability, and protection of individual rights. To prevent one person holding too much power from outside the government, we champion regulation of business, leveling of wealth, and protection of the rights of working people. It's all in service to the same goal.



Why don't you get specific here, and I will show you how those "expansions of government" are in service to the same ends as the restraints of government that liberals also believe in.

Truth is, liberals are not believers in either big government or limited government as an end in itself, but will use either one as appropriate to protect liberty and promote equality.



Well, I would agree as far as my own values are concerned, naturally -- I am hardly an advocate of slavery! But you have to understand that in those days, slavery was a burning issue, not a dead one. If you advocated for abolishing it, you were a liberal (on that issue); if you wanted to preserve it you were a conservative. Today, of course, you won't find conservatives in favor of chattel slavery, because the issue is dead; our side won, and it is now a universal value rather than a political issue.

There's not much point in quoting liberals of the time, like Frederick Douglass, against the institution of slavery. I fully agree with the man, and with Lincoln that the nation could not ultimately remain half slave and half free; I consider the Fugitive Slave Act, and all other attempts to compromise around the issue, to have been futile, and I think the 600,000 casualties suffered in the Civil War pretty much proves that.

My only point in connection with this is that the Republican Party, which in its inception was an anti-slavery party, was therefore the liberal party at that time. It was the Democrats -- the ones in the North who didn't want to rock the boat or make such a radical change as abolishing slavery, as well as the ones in the South who were so determined to preserve the institution that they sundered the union -- who were the conservatives.

I never said they were exactly the same but gernally Real conservative Republicans stand for liberty and liberal Dems stand for central planning and bigger more powerfull federal government

"Real conservative Republicans" certainly do not stand for MY liberty. Maybe they stand for the liberty of my boss (if I had a boss) -- at my expense, by failing to protect my rights as an employee. Maybe they stand for the liberty of big corporations to maximize their profits -- at the expense of their employees outsourced out of a job, or of the communities suffering their environmental degradations. Maybe they stand for the liberty of the very rich to accumulate as much private fortune as possible -- at the expense of those who would benefit from having some of that accumulated money invested in job-creating wealth-producing ventures and spread around a bit.

"Liberty" means nothing unless one defines whose liberty to do what one is talking about. Often, one person's liberty means another person's enslavement. For an obvious example, one person's liberty to own slaves cannot coexist with another person's liberty not to be a slave. Extrapolate that extreme example out to anything else: person A's liberty to oppress person B is incompatible with person B's freedom from oppression.

Conservatives, in such conflicts, stand with person A. Liberals stand with person B. What that means in terms of "expansion of government" depends on the exact circumstances. When it's the government that A is using to oppress B, then the power of the government to do that needs to be restrained. But when A is using his own private power to oppress B, and the government can be used to restrain A, then it should be so used.

The equation "liberal = big government" is completely simplistic and, as stated, not true. It isn't liberals who have generally championed the huge, overextended military establishment we have today, for example. It isn't liberals who want to re-criminalize abortion and in other ways have the government butt into people's private lives.

On the other hand, it is liberals who want to use government to regulate business so as to prevent both abuses against people's rights and the kind of collapse we had in '08. So liberals and conservatives both like big government in some areas and dislike it in others. The common factor lies elsewhere, and size of government may not be used as a definition.

For some reason this guy thinks these long bloviating post are impressive. The title of this thread is "Republicans..The real allies of African Americans" which you cannot dispute. Republicans were liberal. Democrats were conservative blah…Blah…blah..The facts are that Republicans have been throughout history been the true allies of African Americans, and as you see from those Lincoln quotes he was nothing like the liberals of today. Today’s liberals are as your post proves, want to demonize business and the jobs creators so as to attempt to redistribute wealth and even out outcomes, but that is not what this thread is about.

This thread is about what the title says and the only thing that dems have done for blacks since the founding of the party was LBJ helping to pass the ’64 civil rights act, that’s pretty much it. All the rest of his liberal agenda as failed the black community and helped to destroy the black family, of course he got help with that from the race hustlers. Sad really, instead of working to build up the black population in this country they make money off producing victims and these victims are part of the base of the democrat party congradulations. The current state of African Americans in this country can be traced directly back to the democrat party and the policies of todays liberals

Easy....name something Republicans have done to help blacks in the last 40 years

 

[Brutus]

no need to be politically correct. Many Italians were picked up too. They had a great sympathy for their fascist bretheren.

When the soviets needed new spies they looked among our liberals. I'm sure when the Japanese and Germans needs new spies they knew where to look.

Given that our liberals were spying for Stalin its hard to imagine their concern for American ideals as related to the Japanese. Simply right?

 

[Brutus]

The current state of African Americans in this country can be traced directly back to the democrat party and the policies of todays liberals

yes indeed! Democratic policies have amounted to a near genocide against American Blacks.

Prof. Walter Williams said, "we could survive slavery, we could survive Jim Crow, but we could not survive liberalism."

The black family was actually more intact than the white family at many times in post Civil War America! Its was liberalism that destroyed the black family! Liberals either have no shame or no IQ! I can't decide.

 

[Unkotare]

democrats just can't seem to get over the FACT that they have always lagged far behind the Republican Party in championing civil rights and racial equality.

That is not a fact, because this is 2011, not 1963. It was a fact, decades ago. Today, it's not.

It is a fact. Attempting to create and sustain dependency is not "championing civil rights and racial equality." Attempting to codify double standards into law is not "championing civil rights and racial equality." Taking whole segments of the US population for granted, pandering to them and characterizing them soley by such criteria as race is not "championing civil rights and racial equality."

You democrats are still way behind, just as you've always been.

 

[Unkotare]

A true Republican like me .

Do you really think you are fooling anyone with that? Really?

 

[Unkotare]

daveman, no one cares what you believe or think.

I do. You are completely full of crap and he has accurately called you on it.

 

[Unkotare]

Liberals either have no shame or no IQ! I can't decide.

You don't have to decide, it's both.

 

[daveman]

daveman, no one cares what you believe or think, unless it is a Crusader or an OddOne or a bigrebnc.

Really? The stats say otherwise:

daveman
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: KY
Posts: 20,119
Thanks: 3,331
Thanked 5,798 Times in 3,988 Posts
Rep Power: 728

JakeStarkey
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: in the mainstream
Posts: 20,820
Thanks: 833
Thanked 1,903 Times in 1,627 Posts
Rep Power: 267

Reality once again kicks Fakey's ass.

You guys simply don't count in the party, other than we want your votes. Watch the primary fights next year as we finally can force some of you Hard Rights out of power.

Been a long time coming, going to be worth it.

I'm not in your party. I'm not a Democrat.

 

[rightwinger]

democrats just can't seem to get over the FACT that they have always lagged far behind the Republican Party in championing civil rights and racial equality.

That is not a fact, because this is 2011, not 1963. It was a fact, decades ago. Today, it's not.

It is a fact. Attempting to create and sustain dependency is not "championing civil rights and racial equality." Attempting to codify double standards into law is not "championing civil rights and racial equality." Taking whole segments of the US population for granted, pandering to them and characterizing them soley by such criteria as race is not "championing civil rights and racial equality."

You democrats are still way behind, just as you've always been.

What do you mean by dependency?

Millions of poor Americans, blacks included, have escaped poverty through jobs programs, education, childcare subsidies and medicaid. Republican agendas like keeping minimum wage low and blocking the right to unionize have prevented poor Americans from breaking out of poverty

What is it again that Republicans have done for blacks?

 

[daveman]

Easy....name something Republicans have done to help blacks in the last 40 years

Treat them as free men and women who can think for themselves.

Democrats haven't done that.

 

[daveman]

A true Republican like me .

Do you really think you are fooling anyone with that? Really?

Even the leftists who ride to his rescue don't believe it, and they're pretty damn gullible.

 

[Unkotare]

That is not a fact, because this is 2011, not 1963. It was a fact, decades ago. Today, it's not.

It is a fact. Attempting to create and sustain dependency is not "championing civil rights and racial equality." Attempting to codify double standards into law is not "championing civil rights and racial equality." Taking whole segments of the US population for granted, pandering to them and characterizing them soley by such criteria as race is not "championing civil rights and racial equality."

You democrats are still way behind, just as you've always been.

What do you mean by dependency??

Put down the pipe and go buy a dictionary, moron.

 

[daveman]

daveman, no one cares what you believe or think.

I do. You are completely full of crap and he has accurately called you on it.

*tips hat*

"You must spread some rep around before giving it to Unkotare etc."

 

[rightwinger]

Easy....name something Republicans have done to help blacks in the last 40 years

Treat them as free men and women who can think for themselves.

Democrats haven't done that.

Sure we have. It is Democrats who have provided aid to go to college, Jobs programs, pre school education....not just to blacks, but to any American struggling to escape poverty

To republicans, treating them like free men and women means ignoring them

No wonder so many Americans struggling to escape poverty would never vote Republican