Ron Paul: Putin Has "Law On His Side" With Crimea Invasion...

[Wildman]

We have no valid reason to get involved.

do you believe America should or should NOT honor it's treaties ?

 

[frigidweirdo]

I thought America supported Freedom & Democracy? Guess that's out the window now. Egypt, now Ukraine? Looks like we have no problem with illegal Military Coups these days. In my opinion, forcing American Taxpayers to finance such coups is illegal. I believe our Government is violating Law in funding these coups with Foreign Aid dollars. It should be challenged.

America did.., before this current regime took over.

I assume you mean 1776 when the "regime" took over.

You know Bush supported and helped the coup d'etat against the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADER of Venezuela, right?

 

[Sallow]

And he's wrong.

The US has every right to lecture on Ukraine and actually has a treaty obligating us to support the Ukraine against a Russian invasion.

Dr. Paul is a great man but he's too isolationist and that didn't work out so well in the late 1930s.

The U.S. has supported an illegal coup there. Since when do we support illegal Military Coups? No, we don't have a right to preach to Putin and Russia. It's very disingenuous and hypocritical. It's not our fight. We shouldn't be involved.

Putin must flip us the bird every day. We the people that decided it would be a good idea to invade and destroy a country that didn't attack us are now acting like we have some sort of moral right and obligation to criticize Russia? And they (Russia) didn't even use shock and awe.

We gave that up (being able to offer legit criticism) when we invaded Iraq.

If I were Putin I would tell us to fuck off and mind our own damn business. Maybe we should look for another weak country to invade and destroy. Russia ain't it.

You are right about Iraq. It did knock the US off the moral high ground, but good.

However, there are plenty of other tools in the box that would make this a bad move for Russia.

Nothing wrong with using them.

If Putin wants to reconstitute the Soviet Union, he going to go broke doing it.

And that is why the broke up in the first place.

 

[Desperado]

We have no valid reason to get involved.

do you believe America should or should NOT honor it's treaties ?

Sorry there is no "treaty" with the Ukraine, Treaty means it was ratified by Congress.
What we have here is a non-binding " Memorandum"

The idea of intervention centered on the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed on Dec. 5, 1994, by the United States, Britain, Russia and Ukraine. It promises to recognize Ukraine’s borders in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons at the time.

The memorandum signed by President Bill Clinton, Russian Prime Minister Boris Yeltsin and Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma came about following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, of which Ukraine was part.

Read more at Is U.S. committed to action in Ukraine?


On top of that here are six reasons the use Of Military Forces Is Unthinkable

Washington 3/13/2014 @ 9:26AM 30,124 views
Ukraine Crisis: Six Reasons Why U.S. Use Of Military Forces Is Unthinkable
http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenth...hy-u-s-use-of-military-forces-is-unthinkable/

 

[Wildman]

I thought America supported Freedom & Democracy? Guess that's out the window now. Egypt, now Ukraine? Looks like we have no problem with illegal Military Coups these days. In my opinion, forcing American Taxpayers to finance such coups is illegal. I believe our Government is violating Law in funding these coups with Foreign Aid dollars. It should be challenged.

America did.., before this current regime took over.

I assume you mean 1776 when the "regime" took over.

You know Bush supported and helped the coup d'etat against the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADER of Venezuela, right?

weirdo.., you certainly live up to your name there girly i NEVER "ass-u-me" anything, but.., i do presume you are an idiot simply due to your choosing your board name.

"You know Bush supported and helped the coup d'etat against the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADER of Venezuela, right?"

no, i did not know that, but i would appreciate you providing proof to your ASSertion.., you do have proof and links......, RIGHT ??

 

[JWBooth]

Ron Paul: US has no right to lecture on Ukraine because of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya - YouTube

And he's wrong.

The US has every right to lecture on Ukraine and actually has a treaty obligating us to support the Ukraine against a Russian invasion.

Dr. Paul is a great man but he's too isolationist and that didn't work out so well in the late 1930s.

This treaty of which you speak, could you name it and note the date it was ratified by the Senate?

Don't bother looking, it isn't there. There was an agreement between Clinton, the British, and the Ukraine governments that if they gave up the nukes on their soil, we would look out for them. No more a treaty than the agreement by G.H.W. Bush, immediately ignored, that if Gorbachev would let the satellite countries spin off in peace the US and NATO would not push those countries to join in economic or military alliances with the west.

 

[JWBooth]

I thought America supported Freedom & Democracy?

Meh, only when it has suited the momentary political wants, needs or desires of the government. Otherwise any regeme is subject to being subverted.

 

[francoHFW]

Huge protests against Putin's Ukraine policy in Moscow today...

 

[frigidweirdo]

weirdo.., you certainly live up to your name there girly i NEVER "ass-u-me" anything, but.., i do presume you are an idiot simply due to your choosing your board name.

"You know Bush supported and helped the coup d'etat against the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADER of Venezuela, right?"

no, i did not know that, but i would appreciate you providing proof to your ASSertion.., you do have proof and links......, RIGHT ??

Good, you can assume I'm an idiot, that's fine by me. Just don't insult me, I've blocked 3 people already in a week because of that.

Yeah, I can prove it.

It happened on the 11th April 2002.

Carlos Molina | Venezuela | ZoomInfo.com

This guy Admiral Carlos Molina demanded Chavez's resignation, he was an ally of Chavez.

"Venezuelan Vice Admiral Carlos Molina and Air Force Colonel Pedro Soto each receive $100,000 from a Miami bank account for denouncing Chavez (see February 18, 2002). [Washington Post,"

"Key organizers of the coup met US officials in the White House months before it took place and its main leader, Admiral Carlos Molina, later said: "We felt we were acting with US support… we agree that we can't permit a communist government here."

"A US diplomat revealed that Molina and Soto had each received $100,000 from a Miami bank account for denouncing Chávez.{18}"

U.S. Cautioned Leader of Plot Against Chávez - NYTimes.com

On the 17th April the New York Times reported

"The Bush administration, under criticism for its role in the ouster of President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela, acknowledged today that a senior administration official was in contact with Mr. Chávez's successor on the very day he took over.

Otto J. Reich, assistant secretary for Western Hemisphere affairs, phoned the incoming president, Pedro Carmona Estanga, to plead with him not to dissolve the National Assembly on the grounds it would be ''a stupid thing to do,'' and provoke an outcry, a State Department official said.

Administration officials cited the call as evidence that they had sought to uphold democratic processes in Venezuela, but the disclosure raised questions as to whether Mr. Reich or other officials were stage-managing the takeover by Mr. Carmona, one of the leaders of the military and business coalition that ousted the president."

Now, I was living in Spain at the time and didn't take much notice of it then, but the one thing I do seem to remember well is that the US and Spain acknowledged the new government. It usually takes something like a month for a govt to respond, Chavez was back in power days after, not enough time for the US or Spain to react to the situation before Chavez got back in unless they knew, and they'd only know if they were a part of it.

BBC News | AMERICAS | US denies backing Chavez plotters

Now, the US denied this (from 16th April 2002) but also said:

"White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said: "Our message has been consistent. The political situation in Venezuela is one for the Venezuelans to resolve peacefully, democratically and constitutionally.""

But also: "The United States has withheld support for Mr Chavez, saying his return to power does not amount to a full restoration of Venezuelan democracy."

But then.....

http://oig.state.gov/documents/organization/13682.pdf

This is what the US govt has found out.

"It is clear
that, during the six month period, NED, the Department, and DOD provided
training, institution building, and other support under programs totaling about $3.3
million to Venezuelan organizations and individuals, some of whom are understood
to have been involved in the events of April 12–14. Further, the federal assistance
programs involved numerous contacts between NED, the Department, and DOD
and these organizations and individuals during the six months period. However, we
found no evidence that this support, or those contacts, directly contributed, or were
intended to contribute, to the events of that weekend."

Notice the term "directly contributed". I'm not claiming the US actually carried out the coup, but just helped, knew of, supported, backed up, used lots of money and so on.

"The OTI team noted in its report that The policy of the USG has been to
support the establishment of, and respect for, democratically elected governments.
In applying this to Venezuela, consideration must be given to the actions of a
democratically elected leader who demonstrates disrespect for, and seeks to destroy, essential democratic structures."

So on the one hand they're "promoting democracy", which I read as supporting the opposition, and on the other they hate Chavez for not being democratic. It's double speak. "We support democracy" means "we support a coup against a democratically elected leader we don't like".

"“Promoting democracy” will be a lower priority in an already democratic
country. For FY 2002 in Venezuela, in the plan prepared in 2000, promoting
democracy was ranked in fourth place. In the FY 2003 plan, prepared in 2001,
democracy moved to the highest priority. The strategy was to engage not only
high-level civilian Venezuelan officials, but also the military, police, judicial system,
media, non-governmental organizations, academia, and the business community, in
efforts to strengthen existing democratic institutions and to build new ones. The
aim was to encourage a vibrant democracy with stronger human rights and labor
rights, a robust civil society, unfettered freedom of expression, and the honest and
efficient administration of justice. This dramatic reordering of priorities clearly
reflected the growing concern of U.S. officials about the various anti-democratic
actions deemed by the United States to have been taken by the Chávez government."

This document would seem to be trying to say "we didn't do anything" but actually points to the fact that they did do something.

Sorry if this is all bitty, and there's plenty more evidence out there, I've not looked at this for ages and have just gone and searched for the stuff.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Ron Paul is a schmuck.

The sooner he leaves congress the better.

He should join Snowden in Russia.

Because he wants us to stop bombing other countries and mind our own business more often than not in every corner of the world?

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Ron Paul is a schmuck.

The sooner he leaves congress the better.

He should join Snowden in Russia.

He's retired now. And we are neither Georgians or Ukrainians. You Obamabots are being big ole dishonest hypocrites on this one. You rightfully ridiculed McCain for saying "We are all Georgians." Yet now you're suddenly "We are all Ukrainians!" Hey, at least the Neocon Republicans have been honest & consistent. They wanted to intervene then and they want to intervene now. But you guys, well you're just disingenuous people.

They are jealous that some of us support peace, and they have only supported killing innocent people from the get go.

 

[Contumacious]

Ron Paul a real American and true patriot, shame he never won.

He is right, this isn't our business. We should have never incited unrest in Ukraine to begin with and should let the people of Crimea determine their own political destiny.

Bullshit.

We are supporting AlQaeda in Syria, so we must support the Nazis in Ukraine. Its only fair,

.

 

[tinydancer]

Ron Paul a real American and true patriot, shame he never won.

He is right, this isn't our business. We should have never incited unrest in Ukraine to begin with and should let the people of Crimea determine their own political destiny.

Except, the people of Crimea have no choice to determine their own political destiny.

Declining being annexed by Russia is not a choice in Sunday's voting.

Ron Paul a real American and true patriot, shame he never won.

He is right, this isn't our business. We should have never incited unrest in Ukraine to begin with and should let the people of Crimea determine their own political destiny.

He is a real American and he is a true patriot. He's just wrong about foreign policy and the gold standard.

Who is a fake American?

The duly elected President in Kiev was overthrown by a coup by the opposition parties.
One more instance of "street protest" being used as cover.

Crimea who had backed the President and the party in power and may I point out one more time that they were duly elected are needless to say pissed off as hell that the western based districts overthrew the government.

AND you have to understand that Crimea has only been part of Ukraine's territory since the mid 50's when Kruschev gave the territory to the Ukraine.

AND demographically Crimea is 60% ethnic Russian who are thrilled to run to Russia because they know the bastards in Western Ukraine hate their guts.

Hell's bells one of the first bilsl passed by the "new interim government" was to ban the Russian language. These guys in charge now are a real piece of work. They only believe in "ethnically pure Ukrainians". Now the bill banning the Russian language was vetoed by the new interim President at the bidding of his new masters in the EU but for how long?

If I was Crimean, I wouldn't be getting a "warm and fuzzy" that's for sure.

That should set alarm bells off for the rest of the planet but it appears that the EU and the west don't mind overlooking these small details just so the west can grab the Ukraine.

 

[francoHFW]

Oh fer crying out loud, he rigged his last election and was total crook...lol

 

[Steinlight]

More news, apparently NATO/EU/IMF backed "neo-nazis" are being bussed in from the west of the country to attack pro-Russian demonstrators with machine guns and have killed 2 civilians.

I wonder if Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nuland is helping to pay for the busses and guns with that 5 billion in taxpayers money?
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kharkov-radicals-attack-982/

Really pleasant bunch the EU and USA are, lol.

 

[O.R.I.O.N]

I support Dr Paul on his Foreign Policy for the most part. Actually voted for him in 2008. I see some still comprehend the difference between NON INTERVENTIONISM and ISOLATIONISM.

 

[O.R.I.O.N]

Ron Paul is a schmuck.

The sooner he leaves congress the better.

He should join Snowden in Russia.

Well SOMEONE obviously doesn't pay attention to politics! I mean he has only been retired since LAST JANUARY!

 

[paulitician]

Ron Paul is a schmuck.

The sooner he leaves congress the better.

He should join Snowden in Russia.

He's retired now. And we are neither Georgians or Ukrainians. You Obamabots are being big ole dishonest hypocrites on this one. You rightfully ridiculed McCain for saying "We are all Georgians." Yet now you're suddenly "We are all Ukrainians!" Hey, at least the Neocon Republicans have been honest & consistent. They wanted to intervene then and they want to intervene now. But you guys, well you're just disingenuous people.

They are jealous that some of us support peace, and they have only supported killing innocent people from the get go.

Yup, they laughed at ole McCain for saying "We are all Georgians now." They thought it absolutely preposterous to intervene and help the Georgians. But now they're all..."We are all Ukrainians now." So why the sudden change of heart? I'll tell you...Because it was only about hating their BOOOOSH Boogeyman back then. It was cheap petty Party before Country stuff.

The Communist/Progressive Democrats are now the biggest Warmongers in the country. And why do you think that is? I'll give you a hint...It has something to do with that 'D' VS. 'R' thing. Their rush to War with Russia over Ukraine is absurd. This is not our War. Shame on them.

 

[paulitician]

Ron Paul is a schmuck.

The sooner he leaves congress the better.

He should join Snowden in Russia.

He's retired now. And we are neither Georgians or Ukrainians. You Obamabots are being big ole dishonest hypocrites on this one. You rightfully ridiculed McCain for saying "We are all Georgians." Yet now you're suddenly "We are all Ukrainians!" Hey, at least the Neocon Republicans have been honest & consistent. They wanted to intervene then and they want to intervene now. But you guys, well you're just disingenuous people.

Who said we are "all Ukrainians"?

And your point about Neocons is laughable at best.

How so? They supported intervening on Georgia's behalf, and they support intervening on Ukraine's behalf. They've been honest and consistent. I disagree with them, but they have been honest. You guys on the other hand, are exposing yourselves as shameful hypocrites on this. So let me reiterate, we are neither Georgians or Ukrainians. We have no business getting involved.

 

[Steinlight]

There won't be a war, or sanctions, it is just saber rattling at this point, the USA and EU know they can't afford sanctions or a war. Crimea will go to Russia, possibly Donetsk and Kharkiv as well(maybe the vote tomorrow will push both those regions one way or another to do their own referendums).

The liberals/progressives and neo-cons will get what they want in the rest of Ukraine. A "free, elected" government that will introduce austerity measures to take on debt from the IMF and EU to join the EU Superstate to erase it's sovereignty and self determination.

On both ends, Ukraine is being divided up by the so called "Western Powers" and the Russian Federation for their imperial designs.

However, of the imperial powers, Russia offers a far more appealing deal economically speaking, as the Russian economy is rising and the EU is declining, also with the Russian loans, Ukraine would not be forced to take such drastic austerity measure that will surely cripple the country.