Soak the Rich, Lose the Rich

[HUGGY]

Yeah. shame. what would Karl Marx say? He must be spinning in his grave.

That commie straw man is getting a little old don't ya think? The cold war has been over for twenty years. Why are you neo cons allways the last to find shit out?

Not that it will ever be your problem but it is time for the super rich to pay.

I'm not a neocon, but nice try. I know when the Cold War ended. Why should the super-rich pay a higher percentage than anyone else? Because they played the game better? and actually it WILL be my problem, but hey, nice try there, too.

I'm happy for you. Now stop being a selfish fuck. My little invention of the pneumatic shingle removal system is all done and going out into the market as we speak. I'll make several to tens of millions off of that one invention with a couple more just as good coming along right behind. I will be proud to pay whatever I am legally obliged to. My companys will never look for ways to cheat the society that has made it possible for me to succeed. You play it any way you can live with.

 

[rightwinger]

no, it's time for ALL good men, to come to the aid of their country.... financially, for our country's sake!

it's time for congress to do some soul searching on their waste as well....

i know, i know....good luck on both!

everyone should pay the same percentage with no shortcuts. make it easy.

I would welcome a flat tax of 15% on everyone with NO deductions. All income is taxed equally.

Watch the rich scream at that one. Take away all the shelters they have to screen income and watch how much of their true wealth they would have to pay. No capital gains deductions, no off shore shelters, no tax free investments....just pay 15% on everything. Sounds like a fair deal to me

 

[Care4all]

Yeah. shame. what would Karl Marx say? He must be spinning in his grave.

That commie straw man is getting a little old don't ya think? The cold war has been over for twenty years. Why are you neo cons allways the last to find shit out?

Not that it will ever be your problem but it is time for the super rich to pay.

I'm not a neocon, but nice try. I know when the Cold War ended. Why should the super-rich pay a higher percentage than anyone else? Because they played the game better? and actually it WILL be my problem, but hey, nice try there, too.

Because they have alot more to give, without having any human suffering is why we have had a Progressive income tax in the first place.... to take from those who are working their fair share and are only getting by, should NOT be made to suffer for this country of ours.

Those that have benefited MOST by being in this country, through our stock markets, through our financial securities that are governed, through our physical safety provided to them and their employees, through our fire departments protecting their huge businesses, through our policemen protecting their businesses and employees, through our decent roads to transport their goods across country, through our postal service, through other businesses that could prosper such as UPS AND FEDEX, through our trucking companies and regs ruling them for safety that transport their goods, through our regulated banks that gave them financing, etc etc etc!!! I can go on and on how a version of what can called govt socialism or gvt intervention has helped the wealthiest a great deal more than is ever given credit imho!

Yes, it is fair to have a progressive tax system....those without money don't have huge businesses to protect, or even use our great roads and railways and airports, or invest in the stock market or even deal with banks for financing, or own an establishment that needs protecting from the loss due to fire....the poor live in neighborhoods where cops fear to enter and they certainly deal with higher crime rates, these innocent low income ones don't get the same security of protection as the wealthiest....even their kids go to crap schools....

Just because their income is low for a full weeks work, does not mean we should PUNISH them for not using all the resources in America, that the wealthiest learned to use and become accustomed to...again, in my opinion, this would be inhumane...and I hope this is not what you are saying?

Care

 

[elvis]

That commie straw man is getting a little old don't ya think? The cold war has been over for twenty years. Why are you neo cons allways the last to find shit out?

Not that it will ever be your problem but it is time for the super rich to pay.

I'm not a neocon, but nice try. I know when the Cold War ended. Why should the super-rich pay a higher percentage than anyone else? Because they played the game better? and actually it WILL be my problem, but hey, nice try there, too.

I'm happy for you. Now stop being a selfish fuck. My little invention of the pneumatic shingle removal system is all done and going out into the market as we speak. I'll make several to tens of millions off of that one invention with a couple more just as good coming along right behind. I will be proud to pay whatever I am legally obliged to. My companys will never look for ways to cheat the society that has made it possible for me to succeed. You play it any way you can live with.

I will pay whatever is legally required. But I don't have to think it's fair to pay a higher percentage, and you shouldn't either. Why should you pay more? Wouldn't you rather give it away to who you want rather than to the government?

 

[elvis]

no, it's time for ALL good men, to come to the aid of their country.... financially, for our country's sake!

it's time for congress to do some soul searching on their waste as well....

i know, i know....good luck on both!

everyone should pay the same percentage with no shortcuts. make it easy.

I would welcome a flat tax of 15% on everyone with NO deductions. All income is taxed equally.

Watch the rich scream at that one. Take away all the shelters they have to screen income and watch how much of their true wealth they would have to pay. No capital gains deductions, no off shore shelters, no tax free investments....just pay 15% on everything. Sounds like a fair deal to me

I am all for that.

 

[Care4all]

even if i agreed to a flat tax, I would only do such if the first 15k or so is tax free for everyone, from poor to wealthiest. This would make the flat tax, somewhat more fair, by making it progressive.

 

[elvis]

That commie straw man is getting a little old don't ya think? The cold war has been over for twenty years. Why are you neo cons allways the last to find shit out?

Not that it will ever be your problem but it is time for the super rich to pay.

I'm not a neocon, but nice try. I know when the Cold War ended. Why should the super-rich pay a higher percentage than anyone else? Because they played the game better? and actually it WILL be my problem, but hey, nice try there, too.

Because they have alot more to give, without having any human suffering is why we have had a Progressive income tax in the first place.... to take from those who are working their fair share and are only getting by, should NOT be made to suffer for this country of ours.

Those that have benefited MOST by being in this country, through our stock markets, through our financial securities that are governed, through our physical safety provided to them and their employees, through our fire departments protecting their huge businesses, through our policemen protecting their businesses and employees, through our decent roads to transport their goods across country, through our postal service, through other businesses that could prosper such as UPS AND FEDEX, through our trucking companies and regs ruling them for safety that transport their goods, through our regulated banks that gave them financing, etc etc etc!!! I can go on and on how a version of what can called govt socialism or gvt intervention has helped the wealthiest a great deal more than is ever given credit imho!

Yes, it is fair to have a progressive tax system....those without money don't have huge businesses to protect, or even use our great roads and railways and airports, or invest in the stock market or even deal with banks for financing, or own an establishment that needs protecting from the loss due to fire....the poor live in neighborhoods where cops fear to enter and they certainly deal with higher crime rates, these innocent low income ones don't get the same security of protection as the wealthiest....even their kids go to crap schools....

Just because their income is low for a full weeks work, does not mean we should PUNISH them for not using all the resources in America, that the wealthiest learned to use and become accustomed to...again, in my opinion, this would be inhumane...and I hope this is not what you are saying?

Care

I am saying everyone should pay the same amount without deductions. a 15 percent rate. I think it would generate more revenue and be more efficient than what we have now. If you want to go back to what we had under clinton, where EVERYONE'S taxes were higher than they are now, that's your prerogative.

 

[elvis]

even if i agreed to a flat tax, I would only do such if the first 15k or so is tax free for everyone, from poor to wealthiest. This would make the flat tax, somewhat more fair, by making it progressive.

a flat progressive tax is an oxymoron.

 

[elvis]

why should I pay higher taxes than someone else? They have the same opportunities I have.

 

[HUGGY]

I'm not a neocon, but nice try. I know when the Cold War ended. Why should the super-rich pay a higher percentage than anyone else? Because they played the game better? and actually it WILL be my problem, but hey, nice try there, too.

I'm happy for you. Now stop being a selfish fuck. My little invention of the pneumatic shingle removal system is all done and going out into the market as we speak. I'll make several to tens of millions off of that one invention with a couple more just as good coming along right behind. I will be proud to pay whatever I am legally obliged to. My companys will never look for ways to cheat the society that has made it possible for me to succeed. You play it any way you can live with.

I will pay whatever is legally required. But I don't have to think it's fair to pay a higher percentage, and you shouldn't either. Why should you pay more? Wouldn't you rather give it away to who you want rather than to the government?

This country is the land of opportunity. No where else can I do what I do. I do not fear the government. I don't see things the same way you do. Paying fair taxes is investing in the infrastructure that ensures my chances to succeed.

 

[Care4all]

everyone should pay the same percentage with no shortcuts. make it easy.

I would welcome a flat tax of 15% on everyone with NO deductions. All income is taxed equally.

Watch the rich scream at that one. Take away all the shelters they have to screen income and watch how much of their true wealth they would have to pay. No capital gains deductions, no off shore shelters, no tax free investments....just pay 15% on everything. Sounds like a fair deal to me

I am all for that.

Well, that would hit the middle class, greatly, with a tax increase....the wealthiest 400 people in America, right now, with all deductions and tx shelters, average paying 17% in income taxes.

My husband and I made a decent income when we were both working and paid alot in taxes, but when he worked out of the home with a new job as a Rep for a vendo,r we got alot of deductions and an huge mortgage on the house at the time and huge state and property taxes in Massachusetts, we on average had $30k plus, in deductions and on average, at year end, only ended up paying 7%-10% in income taxes though we began in a much higher bracket, before the deductions, and 401k's maxed etc.

Now, that i don't work, one part time income only for the two of us with Matt...but we own our home, we might pay 5% in income taxes....we live off of less than $20k for the two of us...we have a very lean and mean budget....what retirement we do have saved are tax free investments for now, till we start pulling them out....so 15% would KILL US, compared to 5%, plus we pay $1800 in property taxes, $3800 when we were in massachusetts, and matt and I have never had children, we were unable to, yet we pay for schools for all other children, from the beginning to when we die....which is fine, I suppose, for the betterment of our country....but still a flat 15% would hit alot of people like me and matt, and hit us hard...especially since most of what he clears, is to pay for oil heat and the other energies....and food, that's about it.

 

[dilloduck]

I would welcome a flat tax of 15% on everyone with NO deductions. All income is taxed equally.

Watch the rich scream at that one. Take away all the shelters they have to screen income and watch how much of their true wealth they would have to pay. No capital gains deductions, no off shore shelters, no tax free investments....just pay 15% on everything. Sounds like a fair deal to me

I am all for that.

Well, that would hit the middle class, greatly, with a tax increase....the wealthiest 400 people in America, right now, with all deductions and tx shelters, average paying 17% in income taxes.

My husband and I made a decent income when we were both working and paid alot in taxes, but when he worked out of the home with a new job as a Rep for a vendo,r we got alot of deductions and an huge mortgage on the house at the time and huge state and property taxes in Massachusetts, we on average had $30k plus, in deductions and on average, at year end, only ended up paying 7% in income taxes though we began in a much higher bracket, before the deductions, and 401k's maxed etc.

Now, that i don't work, one part time income only for the two of us with Matt...but we own our home, we might pay 5% in income taxes....we live off of less than $20k for the two of us...we have a very lean and mean budget....what retirement we do have saved are tax free investments for now, till we start pulling them out....so 15% would KILL US, compared to 5%, plus we pay $1800 in property taxes, $3800 when we were in massachusetts, and matt and I have never had children, we were unable to, yet we pay for schools for all other children, from the beginning to when we die....which is fine, I suppose, for the betterment of our country....but still a flat 15% would hit alot of people like me and matt, and hit us hard...especially since most of what he clears, is to pay for oil heat and the other energies....and food, that's about it.

Obviously you need to go get a job !

 

[Tech_Esq]

no, it's time for ALL good men, to come to the aid of their country.... financially, for our country's sake!

it's time for congress to do some soul searching on their waste as well....

i know, i know....good luck on both!

everyone should pay the same percentage with no shortcuts. make it easy.

I would welcome a flat tax of 15% on everyone with NO deductions. All income is taxed equally.

Watch the rich scream at that one. Take away all the shelters they have to screen income and watch how much of their true wealth they would have to pay. No capital gains deductions, no off shore shelters, no tax free investments....just pay 15% on everything. Sounds like a fair deal to me

I dunno, I paid 13.something percent last year. I had a bunch of tax loopholes and etc that I jumped through to keep it that low. If I knew I could just pay a flat 15% I might be pretty happy.

 

[elvis]

I would welcome a flat tax of 15% on everyone with NO deductions. All income is taxed equally.

Watch the rich scream at that one. Take away all the shelters they have to screen income and watch how much of their true wealth they would have to pay. No capital gains deductions, no off shore shelters, no tax free investments....just pay 15% on everything. Sounds like a fair deal to me

I am all for that.

Well, that would hit the middle class, greatly, with a tax increase....the wealthiest 400 people in America, right now, with all deductions and tx shelters, average paying 17% in income taxes.

My husband and I made a decent income when we were both working and paid alot in taxes, but when he worked out of the home with a new job as a Rep for a vendo,r we got alot of deductions and an huge mortgage on the house at the time and huge state and property taxes in Massachusetts, we on average had $30k plus, in deductions and on average, at year end, only ended up paying 7%-10% in income taxes though we began in a much higher bracket, before the deductions, and 401k's maxed etc.

Now, that i don't work, one part time income only for the two of us with Matt...but we own our home, we might pay 5% in income taxes....we live off of less than $20k for the two of us...we have a very lean and mean budget....what retirement we do have saved are tax free investments for now, till we start pulling them out....so 15% would KILL US, compared to 5%, plus we pay $1800 in property taxes, $3800 when we were in massachusetts, and matt and I have never had children, we were unable to, yet we pay for schools for all other children, from the beginning to when we die....which is fine, I suppose, for the betterment of our country....but still a flat 15% would hit alot of people like me and matt, and hit us hard...especially since most of what he clears, is to pay for oil heat and the other energies....and food, that's about it.

Ok. what percentages were you paying under Clinton?

 

[Care4all]

even if i agreed to a flat tax, I would only do such if the first 15k or so is tax free for everyone, from poor to wealthiest. This would make the flat tax, somewhat more fair, by making it progressive.

a flat progressive tax is an oxymoron.

well, depends on how you view it...

IF EVERYONE, from the richest to the poorest and all in between get to take 15k off of their income before paying taxes, you are NOT giving any individual more than another individual, so it would sorta be called a FLAT tax with a FLAT DEDUCTION, to cover the cost of food and roof overhead....that their labor should pay for, BEFORE the gvt should begin taxing their labor...which honestly, should not be taxed at all....only earnings above one's labor, should be taxed...

* Labor costs for businesses is tax free, why?
care

 

[Tech_Esq]

That commie straw man is getting a little old don't ya think? The cold war has been over for twenty years. Why are you neo cons allways the last to find shit out?

Not that it will ever be your problem but it is time for the super rich to pay.

I'm not a neocon, but nice try. I know when the Cold War ended. Why should the super-rich pay a higher percentage than anyone else? Because they played the game better? and actually it WILL be my problem, but hey, nice try there, too.

Because they have alot more to give, without having any human suffering is why we have had a Progressive income tax in the first place.... to take from those who are working their fair share and are only getting by, should NOT be made to suffer for this country of ours.

Those that have benefited MOST by being in this country, through our stock markets, through our financial securities that are governed, through our physical safety provided to them and their employees, through our fire departments protecting their huge businesses, through our policemen protecting their businesses and employees, through our decent roads to transport their goods across country, through our postal service, through other businesses that could prosper such as UPS AND FEDEX, through our trucking companies and regs ruling them for safety that transport their goods, through our regulated banks that gave them financing, etc etc etc!!! I can go on and on how a version of what can called govt socialism or gvt intervention has helped the wealthiest a great deal more than is ever given credit imho!

Yes, it is fair to have a progressive tax system....those without money don't have huge businesses to protect, or even use our great roads and railways and airports, or invest in the stock market or even deal with banks for financing, or own an establishment that needs protecting from the loss due to fire....the poor live in neighborhoods where cops fear to enter and they certainly deal with higher crime rates, these innocent low income ones don't get the same security of protection as the wealthiest....even their kids go to crap schools....

Just because their income is low for a full weeks work, does not mean we should PUNISH them for not using all the resources in America, that the wealthiest learned to use and become accustomed to...again, in my opinion, this would be inhumane...and I hope this is not what you are saying?

Care

How much is a "fair share" Care?

Should some people get to live here and enjoy the services that this country provides and not pay anything into the system?

If some people get to not pay anything into the system, what incentive do they have to not ask for more and more? After all, it wouldn't be their money.

Is there some percentage of the population that you wouldn't want to push the "free ride?" I mean if 55% of the people didn't pay in, then they could always vote themselves more largess to be paid by the 45% that did pay in, right?

Just curious about your answers to those questions.

 

[elvis]

just to clarity, care, I was thinking about the wealthy not getting all the deductions.

 

[HUGGY]

I would welcome a flat tax of 15% on everyone with NO deductions. All income is taxed equally.

Watch the rich scream at that one. Take away all the shelters they have to screen income and watch how much of their true wealth they would have to pay. No capital gains deductions, no off shore shelters, no tax free investments....just pay 15% on everything. Sounds like a fair deal to me

I am all for that.

Well, that would hit the middle class, greatly, with a tax increase....the wealthiest 400 people in America, right now, with all deductions and tx shelters, average paying 17% in income taxes.

My husband and I made a decent income when we were both working and paid alot in taxes, but when he worked out of the home with a new job as a Rep for a vendo,r we got alot of deductions and an huge mortgage on the house at the time and huge state and property taxes in Massachusetts, we on average had $30k plus, in deductions and on average, at year end, only ended up paying 7% in income taxes though we began in a much higher bracket, before the deductions, and 401k's maxed etc.

Now, that i don't work, one part time income only for the two of us with Matt...but we own our home, we might pay 5% in income taxes....we live off of less than $20k for the two of us...we have a very lean and mean budget....what retirement we do have saved are tax free investments for now, till we start pulling them out....so 15% would KILL US, compared to 5%, plus we pay $1800 in property taxes, $3800 when we were in massachusetts, and matt and I have never had children, we were unable to, yet we pay for schools for all other children, from the beginning to when we die....which is fine, I suppose, for the betterment of our country....but still a flat 15% would hit alot of people like me and matt, and hit us hard...especially since most of what he clears, is to pay for oil heat and the other energies....and food, that's about it.

At 20K you should be paying zero income tax. Flat taxes are theft on those that can't afford any tax. The rich by definition can afford more. What seems hard to communicate is that taxing the rich does not make them less rich. They do not go backwards. They just make less. They are still rich! If they invest in the community by starting businesses that supply jobs I can see tax breaks but just making more money for adding to thier own pile should cost them a little extra for the privilege. I have no pity for people that gamble on the stock market. They are fools. They should be taxed a lot for being idiots and helping raise prices for everyone.

 

[Tech_Esq]

I am all for that.

Well, that would hit the middle class, greatly, with a tax increase....the wealthiest 400 people in America, right now, with all deductions and tx shelters, average paying 17% in income taxes.

My husband and I made a decent income when we were both working and paid alot in taxes, but when he worked out of the home with a new job as a Rep for a vendo,r we got alot of deductions and an huge mortgage on the house at the time and huge state and property taxes in Massachusetts, we on average had $30k plus, in deductions and on average, at year end, only ended up paying 7% in income taxes though we began in a much higher bracket, before the deductions, and 401k's maxed etc.

Now, that i don't work, one part time income only for the two of us with Matt...but we own our home, we might pay 5% in income taxes....we live off of less than $20k for the two of us...we have a very lean and mean budget....what retirement we do have saved are tax free investments for now, till we start pulling them out....so 15% would KILL US, compared to 5%, plus we pay $1800 in property taxes, $3800 when we were in massachusetts, and matt and I have never had children, we were unable to, yet we pay for schools for all other children, from the beginning to when we die....which is fine, I suppose, for the betterment of our country....but still a flat 15% would hit alot of people like me and matt, and hit us hard...especially since most of what he clears, is to pay for oil heat and the other energies....and food, that's about it.

At 20K you should be paying zero income tax. Flat taxes are theft on those that can't afford any tax. The rich by definition can afford more. What seems hard to communicate is that taxing the rich does not make them less rich. They do not go backwards. They just make less. They are still rich! If they invest in the community by starting businesses that supply jobs I can see tax breaks but just making more money for adding to thier own pile should cost them a little extra for the privilege. I have no pity for people that gamble on the stock market. They are fools. They should be taxed a lot for being idiots and helping raise prices for everyone.

However, what you don't seem to be getting is that this is not a static analysis. I'm not rich, however, I'd like to get there. Taxing the holy fuck out of me while I'm trying to achieve that is NOT an incentive. It's like if you can't make enough money to REALLY surpass the level where all the taxes kick in to high gear, you're better off staying just under. For small businesses, I can see that stifling growth. If I might be able to add one more person and clear a bit more money. But, it's not an absolute, why risk the extra taxation? Just stay at a comfortable level that won't result in the trouble.

Like I say, this breaks down if I win a large contract and have to significantly staff up to work it. But that's not how growth usually happens. At least not in what I do.

 

[rightwinger]

Look at the existing tax code and see how many exemptions are for the rich and how many are for the working class. The average worker deducts mortgage, taxes and child exemptions. Thats it.
There is not much to shelter or lie about. It is all reported directly to the IRS.
Take away all the exemptions for the rich. Let them pay dollar for dollar on exactly what they earn. They would whine more about a 15% flat tax than they do about 37%