What are people thinking as they hear the Senate arguments?

[georgephillip]

The Right said this was a joke. They were right. It was a joke on them, and it was revealing. The evidence was overwhelming and they know it. And they also know they had to run like the cowards they are by not letting Trump testify. He would have buried himself.

Imho. Trump has re-proven something fundamental to American character, namely a nation in which "machines and computers, profit motives and property rights" take precedence over people invites something similar to spiritual death.

One year to the day before his murder King mused that "the world now demands a maturity of America that we many not be able to achieve."

I suspect he was right about that part too.

FEBRUARY 12, 2021
When Poisons Curdle: Beyond Donald Trump
BY ANDREW BACEVICH

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

I could hardly believe my ears when I listened to Trump’s attorney Bruce Castor argue that because there was pre-planning by violent rightwing and white supremacy groups involved as attested by the FBI — this proved Trump didn’t instigate or wasn’t responsible for the mob’s actions.

“To claim that the president in any way wished, desired or encouraged lawless or violent behavior is a preposterous and monstrous lie," Castor said.

He called the rioters who broke into the Capitol a "small group looking to engage in violent and menacing behavior" who "hijacked the event for their own purposes." Castor said the rioters were from varying political factions, who "pre-planned" the Capitol attack, asserting that the first person to be arrested was a "member of Antifa."

"You can't incite something that was already going to happen," Castor said.

Impeachment trial ends for day after defense rests, Q&A session

But of course without this lame duck president’s incitement and constant lying Jan. 6th could never have happened. What did happen — the disruption of the reading of the confirmed electoral votes making Joe Biden President, is exactly what Trump wanted. Trump’s only regret is that Pence, the military high command and many other men and women of principle did not allow him to get away with his final scam — one that would have proven fatal to our Republic and democratic traditions.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Just watched Representative Jamie Ruskin’s summary.

To me, his indictment is logical, powerful, and irrefutable.

He started slowly. I suppose Ruskin was exhausted. Many of us know his son died just a week or so ago. But the man, a Constitutional lawyer as well as a Congressman, rallied to the challenge. He became more and more eloquent. He spoke fluently and — to me — very movingly about what was at stake.

I haven’t yet seen a less “staged” or more competent attack on Trump’s criminal & treasonous conduct.

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

Just watched Representative Jamie Ruskin’s summary.

To me, his indictment is logical, powerful, and irrefutable.

He started slowly. I suppose Ruskin was exhausted. Many of us know his son died just a week or so ago. But the man, a Constitutional lawyer as well as a Congressman, rallied to the challenge. He became more and more eloquent. He spoke fluently and — to me — very movingly about what was at stake.

I haven’t yet seen a less “staged” or more competent attack on Trump’s criminal & treasonous conduct.

That doesn't change the fact that this impeachment trial is unconstitutional.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Just watched Representative Jamie Ruskin’s summary.

To me, his indictment is logical, powerful, and irrefutable.

He started slowly. I suppose Ruskin was exhausted. Many of us know his son died just a week or so ago. But the man, a Constitutional lawyer as well as a Congressman, rallied to the challenge. He became more and more eloquent. He spoke fluently and — to me — very movingly about what was at stake.

I haven’t yet seen a less “staged” or more competent attack on Trump’s criminal & treasonous conduct.

That doesn't change the fact that this impeachment trial is unconstitutional.

The Senate already ruled in a bipartisan vote that the impeachment trial is Constitutional.

Both Republicans and Democrats in the Senate have agreed on the procedures, witnesses and voting.

The ex-President was invited to appear at the very Capitol his violent supporters attacked, to defend himself before the Republican and Democratic Congressman they were hunting. The coward gave no reason for refusing to appear to face formal charges of inciting the mob that wished to prevent the peaceful transference of power to President Biden. Apparently Trump was afraid of being made a fool of, of breaking down into gibberish under cross examination, or of sounding maniacally irrational as he did in his first debate with Biden.

Perhaps one day you will be able to save up and buy a ticket to Mar-a-Largo, where (for money) you will be able to hear Trump recite the “History Will Resolve Me” speech he didn’t have the courage to give today.

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

Just watched Representative Jamie Ruskin’s summary.

To me, his indictment is logical, powerful, and irrefutable.

He started slowly. I suppose Ruskin was exhausted. Many of us know his son died just a week or so ago. But the man, a Constitutional lawyer as well as a Congressman, rallied to the challenge. He became more and more eloquent. He spoke fluently and — to me — very movingly about what was at stake.

I haven’t yet seen a less “staged” or more competent attack on Trump’s criminal & treasonous conduct.

That doesn't change the fact that this impeachment trial is unconstitutional.

The Senate already ruled in a bipartisan vote that the impeachment trial is Constitutional.

Both Republicans and Democrats in the Senate have agreed on the procedures, witnesses and voting.

The ex-President was invited to appear at the very Capitol his violent supporters attacked, to defend himself before the Republican and Democratic Congressman they were hunting. The coward gave no reason for refusing to appear to face formal charges of inciting the mob that wished to prevent the peaceful transference of power to President Biden. Apparently Trump was afraid of being made a fool of, of breaking down into gibberish under cross examination, or of sounding manically irrational as he did in his first debate with Biden.

Perhaps one day you will be able to save up and buy a ticket to Mar-a-Largo, where (for money) you will be able to hear Trump recite the “History Will Resolve Me” speech he didn’t have the courage to give today.

The Senate doesn't have the power to decide what is, or isn't constitutional. Only the Judicial Branch has that power.

 

[lantern2814]

Just watched Representative Jamie Ruskin’s summary.

To me, his indictment is logical, powerful, and irrefutable.

He started slowly. I suppose Ruskin was exhausted. Many of us know his son died just a week or so ago. But the man, a Constitutional lawyer as well as a Congressman, rallied to the challenge. He became more and more eloquent. He spoke fluently and — to me — very movingly about what was at stake.

I haven’t yet seen a less “staged” or more competent attack on Trump’s criminal & treasonous conduct.

That doesn't change the fact that this impeachment trial is unconstitutional.

The Senate already ruled in a bipartisan vote that the impeachment trial is Constitutional.

Both Republicans and Democrats in the Senate have agreed on the procedures, witnesses and voting.

The ex-President was invited to appear at the very Capitol his violent supporters attacked, to defend himself before the Republican and Democratic Congressman they were hunting. The coward gave no reason for refusing to appear to face formal charges of inciting the mob that wished to prevent the peaceful transference of power to President Biden. Apparently Trump was afraid of being made a fool of, of breaking down into gibberish under cross examination, or of sounding maniacally irrational as he did in his first debate with Biden.

Perhaps one day you will be able to save up and buy a ticket to Mar-a-Largo, where (for money) you will be able to hear Trump recite the “History Will Resolve Me” speech he didn’t have the courage to give today.

Hey dummy, try getting an education. The Senate can NOT declare anything constitutional. That would be be decided by SCOTUS. Trump a coward? Laughable. You assholes had no case. No reason for him to appear and lend any legitimacy to your clown show. Seems your side went full coward once the threat was made to put Pisslosi and other Dem riot encourager seems on the stand. Now go enjoy your cry at Trump’s full ACQUITTAL.

 

[Flopper]

I could hardly believe my ears when I listened to Trump’s attorney Bruce Castor argue that because there was pre-planning by violent rightwing and white supremacy groups involved as attested by the FBI — this proved Trump didn’t instigate or wasn’t responsible for the mob’s actions.

“To claim that the president in any way wished, desired or encouraged lawless or violent behavior is a preposterous and monstrous lie," Castor said.

He called the rioters who broke into the Capitol a "small group looking to engage in violent and menacing behavior" who "hijacked the event for their own purposes." Castor said the rioters were from varying political factions, who "pre-planned" the Capitol attack, asserting that the first person to be arrested was a "member of Antifa."

"You can't incite something that was already going to happen," Castor said.

Impeachment trial ends for day after defense rests, Q&A session

But of course without this lame duck president’s incitement and constant lying Jan. 6th could never have happened. What did happen — the disruption of the reading of the confirmed electoral votes making Joe Biden President, is exactly what Trump wanted. Trump’s only regret is that Pence, the military high command and many other men and women of principle did not allow him to get away with his final scam — one that would have proven fatal to our Republic and democratic traditions.

In most of the world, Trump would be facing a firing squad

 

[Dr Grump]

I just listened to the Senate Trial Presentations and have a few thoughts. Others will disagree, even violently. Listen to my thoughts, and then I’ll listen to yours...

The “House Managers” just refuted what I thought were preposterous Republican arguments that the Constitution won’t even allow for a trial of impeached ex-president Trump. I come away more than ever impressed with the Constitutional importance of what is now at stake.

This is not a ridiculous impeachment over lying about sex, or a hearing over the tragedy in Benghazi. This is about taking a stand against an out-of-control lame-duck President who tried to keep himself in office. This trial is about dealing with an attack on our whole democratic electoral system, on the Capitol itself. It is about re-asserting the power of Congress to stand against a mad President.

I personally have sometimes dreamt of seeing the impeachment and conviction of Presidents (of both parties) who lied and led us into murderous and totally unnecessary overseas military adventures. Of course these impeachments never happened. Yet now in D.C., in the heartland of our Republic and “empire,” political marketing and “America First” demagogy has succeeded ... in dividing the minds and hearts of Americans ... rather than Iraqis, Russians or Chinese.

Many of our own obsessions as a nation led to Jan. 6th, and its shadow will lie over our Republic for a long time. I think if this Senate doesn’t make an example of our most dangerous and outrageous recent demagogue we will be guaranteeing further more serious political mob action and even coup adventures in the future.

This is not a “show trial.” Well, just perhaps it will go down in history as a “show trial” ... if our people and politicians treat it as one. If few Republicans rise to the occasion and do their duty, if Donald Trump is not repudiated in the most severe Constitutional manner possible, then we are “showing” that we treat our great Republic and its institutions as crap.

It’s our Republic ... if we can keep it.

I think you have chosen one of the fundamental differences between the US and a lot of other countries - to much partisanship.

The other thing I would say , and the loons on the right on here (and I do mean the loons, not the normal righties) would vehemently disagree on, is that if Trump had been a Democrat, then a lot more on the left would have turned on him. People think I'm a full on leftie. I'm not. But if a Democrat had done what Trump had done I hope the senate would have thrown the book at them, too...

 

[Faun]

Just watched Representative Jamie Ruskin’s summary.

To me, his indictment is logical, powerful, and irrefutable.

He started slowly. I suppose Ruskin was exhausted. Many of us know his son died just a week or so ago. But the man, a Constitutional lawyer as well as a Congressman, rallied to the challenge. He became more and more eloquent. He spoke fluently and — to me — very movingly about what was at stake.

I haven’t yet seen a less “staged” or more competent attack on Trump’s criminal & treasonous conduct.

That doesn't change the fact that this impeachment trial is unconstitutional.

The Senate already ruled in a bipartisan vote that the impeachment trial is Constitutional.

Both Republicans and Democrats in the Senate have agreed on the procedures, witnesses and voting.

The ex-President was invited to appear at the very Capitol his violent supporters attacked, to defend himself before the Republican and Democratic Congressman they were hunting. The coward gave no reason for refusing to appear to face formal charges of inciting the mob that wished to prevent the peaceful transference of power to President Biden. Apparently Trump was afraid of being made a fool of, of breaking down into gibberish under cross examination, or of sounding maniacally irrational as he did in his first debate with Biden.

Perhaps one day you will be able to save up and buy a ticket to Mar-a-Largo, where (for money) you will be able to hear Trump recite the “History Will Resolve Me” speech he didn’t have the courage to give today.

Hey dummy, try getting an education. The Senate can NOT declare anything constitutional. That would be be decided by SCOTUS. Trump a coward? Laughable. You assholes had no case. No reason for him to appear and lend any legitimacy to your clown show. Seems your side went full coward once the threat was made to put Pisslosi and other Dem riot encourager seems on the stand. Now go enjoy your cry at Trump’s full ACQUITTAL.

You have that backwards... it's Constitutional unless the Judiciary says it isn't.

 

[Turtlesoup]

I think yours is a very perceptive comment, and a warning to us all. The fact that sufficient numbers of Republican Senators apparently aren’t willing even now to convict ... is also a very ominous development. Not surprising, but ominous.

I'm wondering how many of the 74 million voters who supported Trump are still with him? Fifty million is a number I've heard mentioned a few times. Perhaps Trump will divide the Republican Party into a pair of warring faction by November 2022?

100 million or more now easily.........

 

[Faun]

I think yours is a very perceptive comment, and a warning to us all. The fact that sufficient numbers of Republican Senators apparently aren’t willing even now to convict ... is also a very ominous development. Not surprising, but ominous.

I'm wondering how many of the 74 million voters who supported Trump are still with him? Fifty million is a number I've heard mentioned a few times. Perhaps Trump will divide the Republican Party into a pair of warring faction by November 2022?

100 million or more now easily.........

Pales in comparison to Biden's 150 million.

 

[georgephillip]

100 million or more now easily.........

You think inciting insurrection has increased Don the Con's approval ratings?

How we know the drop in Trump’s approval rating in January reflected a real shift in public opinion

"Donald Trump’s final job approval rating as president was 29% in a Pew Research Center poll released last week, the lowest of his presidency and a 9 percentage point drop since August, when 38% of U.S. adults approved.

"The decrease stood out because even some of the momentous events of the past four years did not affect Trump’s approval rating very much."

 

[NotfooledbyW]

100 million or more now easily.....

...and only 1000 of them were patriotic and brave enough to storm the Capitol on January 6th to save America by “Stopping the Steal’ like TrumpQ asked.

One , thousand could not get it done / but millions of you getting wild could have. So where were you and all the other 98,999,999 wild TrumpQ storm troopers on January 6th?

All talk and no action - The Donald is truly disappointed in you for sure.

You didn’t help stop the steal.

 

[Dr Grump]

Just watched Representative Jamie Ruskin’s summary.

To me, his indictment is logical, powerful, and irrefutable.

He started slowly. I suppose Ruskin was exhausted. Many of us know his son died just a week or so ago. But the man, a Constitutional lawyer as well as a Congressman, rallied to the challenge. He became more and more eloquent. He spoke fluently and — to me — very movingly about what was at stake.

I haven’t yet seen a less “staged” or more competent attack on Trump’s criminal & treasonous conduct.

That doesn't change the fact that this impeachment trial is unconstitutional.

The Senate already ruled in a bipartisan vote that the impeachment trial is Constitutional.

Both Republicans and Democrats in the Senate have agreed on the procedures, witnesses and voting.

The ex-President was invited to appear at the very Capitol his violent supporters attacked, to defend himself before the Republican and Democratic Congressman they were hunting. The coward gave no reason for refusing to appear to face formal charges of inciting the mob that wished to prevent the peaceful transference of power to President Biden. Apparently Trump was afraid of being made a fool of, of breaking down into gibberish under cross examination, or of sounding maniacally irrational as he did in his first debate with Biden.

Perhaps one day you will be able to save up and buy a ticket to Mar-a-Largo, where (for money) you will be able to hear Trump recite the “History Will Resolve Me” speech he didn’t have the courage to give today.

Hey dummy, try getting an education. The Senate can NOT declare anything constitutional. That would be be decided by SCOTUS. Trump a coward? Laughable. You assholes had no case. No reason for him to appear and lend any legitimacy to your clown show. Seems your side went full coward once the threat was made to put Pisslosi and other Dem riot encourager seems on the stand. Now go enjoy your cry at Trump’s full ACQUITTAL.

Full acquittal? 100 Senators voted against impeachment? Methinks you need to look up the word 'full'. I'm not even going to bring up the GOP Senators who voted FOR impeachment.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I just listened to the Senate Trial Presentations and have a few thoughts. Others will disagree, even violently. Listen to my thoughts, and then I’ll listen to yours...

The “House Managers” just refuted what I thought were preposterous Republican arguments that the Constitution won’t even allow for a trial of impeached ex-president Trump. I come away more than ever impressed with the Constitutional importance of what is now at stake.

This is not a ridiculous impeachment over lying about sex, or a hearing over the tragedy in Benghazi. This is about taking a stand against an out-of-control lame-duck President who tried to keep himself in office. This trial is about dealing with an attack on our whole democratic electoral system, on the Capitol itself. It is about re-asserting the power of Congress to stand against a mad President.

I personally have sometimes dreamt of seeing the impeachment and conviction of Presidents (of both parties) who lied and led us into murderous and totally unnecessary overseas military adventures. Of course these impeachments never happened. Yet now in D.C., in the heartland of our Republic and “empire,” political marketing and “America First” demagogy has succeeded ... in dividing the minds and hearts of Americans ... rather than Iraqis, Russians or Chinese.

Many of our own obsessions as a nation led to Jan. 6th, and its shadow will lie over our Republic for a long time. I think if this Senate doesn’t make an example of our most dangerous and outrageous recent demagogue we will be guaranteeing further more serious political mob action and even coup adventures in the future.

This is not a “show trial.” Well, just perhaps it will go down in history as a “show trial” ... if our people and politicians treat it as one. If few Republicans rise to the occasion and do their duty, if Donald Trump is not repudiated in the most severe Constitutional manner possible, then we are “showing” that we treat our great Republic and its institutions as crap.

It’s our Republic ... if we can keep it.

Is there any EVIDENCE or TESTIMONY being given in the trial, or only "arguments"?

Arguments are fine in their place, I guess.

But unless the Persecution actually presents evidence , how can even a lib assert that guilt was proven beyond a reasonable doubt?

What the House Managers (AKA Prosecutors) put forward were essentially what would be called opening arguments in a real court. All verbiage not supported by testimony or facts put into evidence.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Just watched Representative Jamie Ruskin’s summary.

To me, his indictment is logical, powerful, and irrefutable.

He started slowly. I suppose Ruskin was exhausted. Many of us know his son died just a week or so ago. But the man, a Constitutional lawyer as well as a Congressman, rallied to the challenge. He became more and more eloquent. He spoke fluently and — to me — very movingly about what was at stake.

I haven’t yet seen a less “staged” or more competent attack on Trump’s criminal & treasonous conduct.

While he may have made a "logical, powerful and irrefutable" indictment, he had no proof of anything he argued that Trump did. He was no more than a talking head news presenter or actor. They get paid to convincingly present "logical, powerful and irrefutable" statements without proof. Burt Lancaster, John Wayne or Harrison Ford could easily have stood there and done as well, after all, unsupported verbiage is the stock in trade of both lawyers and actors.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

All verbiage not supported by testimony or facts put into evidence.

The the House managers put forward the insurrection videos. TrumpQ’s words from speeches was evidence. We all saw the evidence on TV as it happened.

No shortage of evidence. Just a shortage of backbone and honesty from the Republican senators. The house managers got seven of them.
Before Trump there’s never been an impeached president that was convicted a member or members by his own party. Trump now has eight from his party voting to convict him. That’s something.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

unsupported verbiage

The verbiage was highly supported by everything that was presented. Timelines, trumps words, the mob ransacking the capital. WTF do you think that was? The problem is that all but maybe 10 of the Republican senators would perform fellatio on Trump on camera and be proud about if the TrumpQ cult demands it.

 

[Correll]

I could hardly believe my ears when I listened to Trump’s attorney Bruce Castor argue that because there was pre-planning by violent rightwing and white supremacy groups involved as attested by the FBI — this proved Trump didn’t instigate or wasn’t responsible for the mob’s actions.

“To claim that the president in any way wished, desired or encouraged lawless or violent behavior is a preposterous and monstrous lie," Castor said.

He called the rioters who broke into the Capitol a "small group looking to engage in violent and menacing behavior" who "hijacked the event for their own purposes." Castor said the rioters were from varying political factions, who "pre-planned" the Capitol attack, asserting that the first person to be arrested was a "member of Antifa."

"You can't incite something that was already going to happen," Castor said.

Impeachment trial ends for day after defense rests, Q&A session

But of course without this lame duck president’s incitement and constant lying Jan. 6th could never have happened. What did happen — the disruption of the reading of the confirmed electoral votes making Joe Biden President, is exactly what Trump wanted. Trump’s only regret is that Pence, the military high command and many other men and women of principle did not allow him to get away with his final scam — one that would have proven fatal to our Republic and democratic traditions.

Trump called for a demonstration to put pressure on Congress.

That some people were able to use that to spark a riot, is on those people that did that.


That they could not use the demonstration to spark a riot, if there was not a demonstration, while technically true, does not put the responsibility for their actions on anyone other than themselves.


Your desire to hold the President responsible for the actions of other people, is you showing that you are willing to make up shit to justify jailing your political enemies.