Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[Sixties Fan]

I believe that the temple mount is not settled history and that the Zionist narrative is only possible through misinterpretation and misrepresentation.

Have you ever actually read the literature by Josephus and others regarding the size and location of Fortress Antonia?

Instead of banging your head on the wall, you might want to try reading and then comparing what you have read with the narrative you post on every thread.

Abi, the idea that there is NO connection between the Jewish people and the territory in question is the most absurd argument. EVER.

It is possible that Abi will never understand that Jewish history does not change. It is documented by all the invading powers to the land, and the merchants it did business with.

On the other hand, Mohammad having been in Jerusalem,
the importance of the Temple Mount and Cave of the Patriarchs to Muslims, etc is very recent.
None of that is part of the Quran, or any Muslim history book,
documents, observations, etc by any Muslims before WWI, literally - before the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate for Palestine came to be.

Until 1964, the Arabs in Palestine thought of themselves as part of Greater Syria. That is documented.

Until Israel took back the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, the Temple Mount was of no importance to Muslims including the Arabs of Palestine, or Israel.

Some people can call one's history a narrative (story) all they want.

The proof of the pudding is always in the evidence. Recent or from the very far past.

How did Jews always feel towards the land of Israel and Jerusalem and the Temple Mount?

How did Muslims, Arab, Kurds, Turks, etc, always feel about the Land of Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple Mount?


Evidence tells which one is history, and which one is narrative.

 

[abi]

How did Jews always feel towards the land of Israel and Jerusalem and the Temple Mount?

I think it is far more important and far easier to discern how they feel today.

I just put a thread up for you guys on this exact thing.
I found this shocking. Why do so many Jews in Israel wish to leave?

 

[Shusha]

It is possible that Abi will never understand that Jewish history does not change.

Of course, Abi/Louie will never understand factual evidence, because she doesn't start with factual evidence. She, like the majority who hold a demonizing view of Jews and Israel, begins from the point of view that the Jewish people have no rights and are inherently evil and then back-builds her narrative from that point. The only possible way to accomplish that is a wild denial of truth.

Until 1964, the Arabs in Palestine thought of themselves as part of Greater Syria.

The Palestinians still think of themselves as being no different than Syrians or Jordanians. All one people. To this day. You've seen Corey Gil-Shuster's video on the topic?

 

[abi]

Enough already, I never said Jews had no connection, those are your words. Here is what I said that triggered you which was an answer to your point about "the entire source of the conflict."

C'mon, how much more disingenuous can one be?

The behavior and actions taken by every Israeli regime since her inception has absolutely nothing to do with it? The fact that more than half of Israeli Jews want the Christians and Muslims ethnically cleansed has nothing to with it? The massive immigration of Europeans has nothing to do with it, nor the hundreds of thousands of the indigenous people who were ethnically cleansed when the Europeans arrived has nothing to do with it?!?

 

[Sixties Fan]

How did Jews always feel towards the land of Israel and Jerusalem and the Temple Mount?

I think it is far more important and far easier to discern how they feel today.

I just put a thread up for you guys on this exact thing.
I found this shocking. Why do so many Jews in Israel wish to leave?

That is a phony response. You are trying to diminish the importance of any part of Israel for the Jews today.

As explained before, just as with citizens from any other country, people get job opportunities elsewhere for a few years, or go and check for opportunities somewhere else.
It does not mean that most of them have immigrated for good to any other country.

But that is the false appearance you are trying to create.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Enough already, I never said Jews had no connection, those are your words. Here is what I said that triggered you which was an answer to your point about "the entire source of the conflict."

C'mon, how much more disingenuous can one be?

The behavior and actions taken by every Israeli regime since her inception has absolutely nothing to do with it? The fact that more than half of Israeli Jews want the Christians and Muslims ethnically cleansed has nothing to with it? The massive immigration of Europeans has nothing to do with it, nor the hundreds of thousands of the indigenous people who were ethnically cleansed when the Europeans arrived has nothing to do with it?!?

You may repeat your nonsense all you like.

The indigenous people are the JEWS. Arabs being born in the land of Israel for the past 1400 years, does not make them the indigenous people of the land, anymore than the Portuguese born in Brazil for the past 500 years, makes them indigenous of
Brazil.

The "massive" immigration of Muslims from Bosnia, Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, etc into the land of Israel since 1892 has nothing to do with the Muslims wanting to ethnically cleanse the Jews , and succeeded in doing so, since 1920 out
Gaza, TranJordan, Hebron, Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem.
No, that ethnic cleansing is not important and has nothing to do with it.

Keep repeating your mantra. Memorex is always useful.

 

[Sixties Fan]

It is possible that Abi will never understand that Jewish history does not change.

Of course, Abi/Louie will never understand factual evidence, because she doesn't start with factual evidence. She, like the majority who hold a demonizing view of Jews and Israel, begins from the point of view that the Jewish people have no rights and are inherently evil and then back-builds her narrative from that point. The only possible way to accomplish that is a wild denial of truth.

Until 1964, the Arabs in Palestine thought of themselves as part of Greater Syria.

The Palestinians still think of themselves as being no different than Syrians or Jordanians. All one people. To this day. You've seen Corey Gil-Shuster's video on the topic?

I may have.
Could you post it here?
Abi/Louie = that would make sense

 

[P F Tinmore]

And trying to discredit Jewish connection to the place is the entire source of the conflict.

C'mon, how much more disingenuous can one be?

The behavior and actions taken by every Israeli regime since her inception has absolutely nothing to do with it? The fact that more than half of Israeli Jews want the Christians and Muslims ethnically cleansed has nothing to with it? The massive immigration of Europeans has nothing to do with it, nor the hundreds of thousands of the indigenous people who were ethnically cleansed when the Europeans arrived has nothing to do with it?!?

Really? Restart the entire conflict with this thought in mind: The Jewish people have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to be here as the Arab people do, if not more. The Jewish people are the indigenous people whose land has been stolen from them. It is their ancestral and historical home. Their sovereignty over their ancestral lands must be reconstituted and their Nation restored.


Now, with that thought in mind -- where is the conflict?

Restart the entire conflict with this thought in mind: The Jewish people have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to be here as the Arab people do, if not more.

You have a basic misunderstanding of the conflict.

Do the Jews have the right to immigrate to Palestine to live in the holy land? Probably so.

Would the existing population have a problem with that? Probably not.

But the Zionist settler colonial project was a completely different thing.

 

[Shusha]

I may have.
Could you post it here?

 

[Shusha]

You have a basic misunderstanding of the conflict.

Do the Jews have the right to immigrate to Palestine to live in the holy land? Probably so.

Would the existing population have a problem with that? Probably not.

But the Zionist settler colonial project was a completely different thing.

How so?

 

[Coyote]

The Jewish narrative could BE that very same thing. Their land was taken in war and never returned.

That is the zionist narrative.

Examine events on the Temple Mount as evidence. They are representative of the entire conflict.

I agree here. Israel's Jews control the Mount (with guns that Christians and Muslims cannot carry) known to the entire Arab world as Haram esh-Sharif. Several Muslim structures are obviously there and the western wall is disputed as to what it represents even by respected, mainstream archeological researchers.
Wailing at the wrong wall?

You have an area that contains holy sites importent to three closely intertwined world religions. The same archaeologists that dispute which is the right wall don't dispute the evidence of Jewish history in that place and it sounds like you are. Are you? Places like these must be preserved and acess by all relevent faiths protected. I do think Israel has done a decent job there. Can you grant them that?

 

[Coyote]

Enough already, I never said Jews had no connection, those are your words. Here is what I said that triggered you which was an answer to your point about "the entire source of the conflict."

C'mon, how much more disingenuous can one be?

The behavior and actions taken by every Israeli regime since her inception has absolutely nothing to do with it? The fact that more than half of Israeli Jews want the Christians and Muslims ethnically cleansed has nothing to with it? The massive immigration of Europeans has nothing to do with it, nor the hundreds of thousands of the indigenous people who were ethnically cleansed when the Europeans arrived has nothing to do with it?!?

What about the immigration of non Palestinian Arabs?

 

[Sixties Fan]

And trying to discredit Jewish connection to the place is the entire source of the conflict.

C'mon, how much more disingenuous can one be?

The behavior and actions taken by every Israeli regime since her inception has absolutely nothing to do with it? The fact that more than half of Israeli Jews want the Christians and Muslims ethnically cleansed has nothing to with it? The massive immigration of Europeans has nothing to do with it, nor the hundreds of thousands of the indigenous people who were ethnically cleansed when the Europeans arrived has nothing to do with it?!?

Really? Restart the entire conflict with this thought in mind: The Jewish people have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to be here as the Arab people do, if not more. The Jewish people are the indigenous people whose land has been stolen from them. It is their ancestral and historical home. Their sovereignty over their ancestral lands must be reconstituted and their Nation restored.


Now, with that thought in mind -- where is the conflict?

Restart the entire conflict with this thought in mind: The Jewish people have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to be here as the Arab people do, if not more.

You have a basic misunderstanding of the conflict.

Do the Jews have the right to immigrate to Palestine to live in the holy land? Probably so.

Would the existing population have a problem with that? Probably not.

But the Zionist settler colonial project was a completely different thing.

No it was not, and you are just as much a Memorex tape as Abi.

There were clans of Arabs who were for the Jews regaining their sovereignty over their ancient homeland. They were beat up by another Arab Muslim clan, the Al- Husseini, of Arafat fame.

Had it not been for the Husseini clan, all the Arabs would have been educated to accept the future Jewish State under the Mandate for Palestine, they would have continued to get jobs created by Jews, just as they do today.

One clan is responsible for inciting all other clans into refusing a Jewish on its rightful land.

Stop with the "Zionist project" garbage.

Zionism means ONLY - recreating a sovereign Jewish State on the ancient Jewish Homeland, WITHOUT expelling any existing population, be it Muslims or Christians.
Which is exactly what the Mandate for Palestine meant to do on all the Mandate, including TransJordan, until the Hashemites got 78% of it in 1925.

Or until the Arab violence made the British want to split the rest into two States, one for each people. Arabs and Jews.

Cleanse your mind of this nonsense of "Zionist Project" which exists only in the mind of Jew haters.

 

[Sixties Fan]

You have a basic misunderstanding of the conflict.

Do the Jews have the right to immigrate to Palestine to live in the holy land? Probably so.

Would the existing population have a problem with that? Probably not.

But the Zionist settler colonial project was a completely different thing.

How so?

I am not seeing what you are responding to unless I press to reply? Why is that ? Do you know Coyote? Are we having some problems today? Thanks.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You have a basic misunderstanding of the conflict.

Do the Jews have the right to immigrate to Palestine to live in the holy land? Probably so.

Would the existing population have a problem with that? Probably not.

But the Zionist settler colonial project was a completely different thing.

How so?

Define immigration.

Define settler colonialism.

 

[Coyote]

You have a basic misunderstanding of the conflict.

Do the Jews have the right to immigrate to Palestine to live in the holy land? Probably so.

Would the existing population have a problem with that? Probably not.

But the Zionist settler colonial project was a completely different thing.

How so?

I am not seeing what you are responding to unless I press to reply? Why is that ? Do you know Coyote? Are we having some problems today? Thanks.

I dont tjink thete are problemd...not sure why you arent seeing it, I can...

 

[Sixties Fan]

You have a basic misunderstanding of the conflict.

Do the Jews have the right to immigrate to Palestine to live in the holy land? Probably so.

Would the existing population have a problem with that? Probably not.

But the Zionist settler colonial project was a completely different thing.

How so?

Define immigration.

Define settler colonialism.

Define indigenous.

Define invaders.

 

[Sixties Fan]

You have a basic misunderstanding of the conflict.

Do the Jews have the right to immigrate to Palestine to live in the holy land? Probably so.

Would the existing population have a problem with that? Probably not.

But the Zionist settler colonial project was a completely different thing.

How so?

I am not seeing what you are responding to unless I press to reply? Why is that ? Do you know Coyote? Are we having some problems today? Thanks.

I dont tjink thete are problemd...not sure why you arent seeing it, I can...

In some posts I will see the quotes to be able to see what one is responding to. In others, I figured I had to click on Reply in order to see what the quote being answered to was.
Puzzling

 

[Shusha]

Define immigration.

Define settler colonialism.

Right. This is where I thought you were heading with this.

The difference is self-determination and sovereignty. So, let's go back to what I said:

Restart the entire conflict with this thought in mind: The Jewish people have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to be here as the Arab people do, if not more. The Jewish people are the indigenous people whose land has been stolen from them. It is their ancestral and historical home. Their sovereignty over their ancestral lands must be reconstituted and their Nation restored.

Its not enough for the Jewish people to be 'permitted' to live in the territory. The requirement is for sovereignty.

 

[Coyote]

Enough already, I never said Jews had no connection, those are your words. Here is what I said that triggered you which was an answer to your point about "the entire source of the conflict."

C'mon, how much more disingenuous can one be?

The behavior and actions taken by every Israeli regime since her inception has absolutely nothing to do with it? The fact that more than half of Israeli Jews want the Christians and Muslims ethnically cleansed has nothing to with it? The massive immigration of Europeans has nothing to do with it, nor the hundreds of thousands of the indigenous people who were ethnically cleansed when the Europeans arrived has nothing to do with it?!?

You may repeat your nonsense all you like.

The indigenous people are the JEWS. Arabs being born in the land of Israel for the past 1400 years, does not make them the indigenous people of the land, anymore than the Portuguese born in Brazil for the past 500 years, makes them indigenous of
Brazil.

The "massive" immigration of Muslims from Bosnia, Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, etc into the land of Israel since 1892 has nothing to do with the Muslims wanting to ethnically cleanse the Jews , and succeeded in doing so, since 1920 out
Gaza, TranJordan, Hebron, Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem.
No, that ethnic cleansing is not important and has nothing to do with it.

Keep repeating your mantra. Memorex is always useful.

There actually wasnt a "massive" immigration of Arabs during that time...some of that is propoganda designed to delegitimize Palestinian rogjts. There is no way ti know exact numbers other than there was some.

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine