Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[Ventura77]

I have read Elhaik's paper, several times in fact..

Clearly, you didn't read to the end.

Clearly you are helpless to comprehend the paper or its evidence...cognitive-dissonance, once yet again you denied that Khazar DNA was available today, I exposed one of a number of your errors...keep spinning




That led geneticist Eran Elhaik of the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health in Baltimore, Maryland to try to reconcile those conflicting studies. And that led him to genetic data that he believes proves the Khazar Hypothesis is accurate.

Elhaik found ancestral genetic signatures that pointed clearly to the Caucasus. He also found such signatures that pointed the Middle East, but to a far, far smaller degree.

“We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaised Khazars, Greco-Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews and Judeans. Their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga, with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan,” Elhaik claims.

Previous genetic studies appeared to support the Rhineland Hypothesis, which posits that Ashkenazi Jews descended from Jews who fled the Land of Israel after the Moslem conquest in 638 AD, settling in southern Europe and slowly working their way north. 50,000 supposedly later moved from the Rhineland into eastern Europe in the later Middle Ages.

But there are serious problems with the Rhineland Hypothesis – so serious that some of its proponents actually posited a Divine miracle to account for them.

For example, the population of Eastern European Jews surged from 50,000 in the 15th century CE to about 8 million by the start of the 20th century – a birthrate 10 times greater than the local non-Jewish population that surrounded them. That implausible population surge would have had to take place despite the economic hardship, wars and pogroms that ravaged those Jewish communities, and the plague that ravaged the entire region.

Another problem with the Rhineland Hypothesis is Yiddish, the language of Eastern European Jews.

“Yiddish, the language of Central and Eastern European Jews, began as a Slavic language,” Elhaik notes. It was classified as a dialect of High German later.

European Jews and their ancestral groups in the Caucasus and Middle East share a relatively high risk of diseases such as cystic fibrosis, as well – another possible indicator of origins.

Elhaik’s study, published in the British journal Genome Biology and Evolution, compares the genomes of 1,287 unrelated individuals who come from eight Jewish and 74 non-Jewish populations.

 

[Sixties Fan]

The trouble with obtaining Khazar DNA is that no population group today is recognized to have descended from the Khazars. Elhaik acknowledges this difficulty and deals with it efficiently. According to him, “Caucasus Georgians and Armenians were considered proto-Khazars because they are believed to have emerged from the same genetic cohort as the Khazars.” He bases this claim on “Polak 1951; Dvornik 1962; Brook 2006.” This appears quite convincing unless one is familiar with the names cited—and the ones missing. Polak and Dvornik were important scholars, but their work is a half-century old and outdated, while Kevin Brook is a talented but amateur Khazar enthusiast who has no first-hand knowledge of Central Asian studies. In fact, no contemporary scholarship supports this claim. Moreover, elsewhere in the article Elhaik himself refers to a study by Balanovsky et al., but fails to mention that it concludes that of all the national groups in the Black Sea region, the Georgians and Armenians were the least likely to have absorbed significant populations from other national groups. In other words, while there was DNA from eight Ashkenazi males in Elhaik’s study, there was no Khazar DNA at all. This makes it a bit difficult to come to significant conclusions about the Khazarian ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews. The problems, however, do not end there.
-------
Following Koestler (whose The Thirteenth Tribe Elhaik has told interviewers he read as a child), Elhaik says that after the downfall of the Khazarian empire, “Some Judeo-Khazars were left behind, mainly in the Crimea and the Caucasus, where they formed Jewish enclaves surviving into modern times . . . [a] vestige of the Khazar nation is the Mountain Jews in the North Eastern Caucasus.” Unfortunately, Koestler had no evidence for this whatsoever. But there is a more serious problem, at least for Elhaik’s argument. If the “Mountain Jews” are a “vestige of the Khazar nation,” why bother with the Georgians and the Armenians? Elhaik could have just gone directly to these “descendants” and compared them with Ashkenazi Jews. The only answer I can see is that this is a case of the dreaded academic syndrome “Cut and Paste Disease.”
-----------
When all is said and done, the accepted wisdom is still acceptable. There is no evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Central Asian “Jews with swords,” and there is every reason to think that they simply came from Central Europe. The findings of other genetic researchers that the DNA of most Jews seems to link them with other Jews more than with any other group has not been disproven.

(full article online)

Jewish Review of BooksAre We All Khazars Now? - Jewish Review of Books

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ P F Tinmore,, et al,

Boundaries do not "expire;" except by the will of the sovereign.

Territorial integrity is relinquished, abandoned, withdrawn or assumed; but does not expire.

Are you saying that international borders expire with time? That the right to territorial integrity expires with time?

Explain what you mean.

(COMMENT)

There are all kinds of things that may alter an international boundary.

International boundaries (as with Armistice Lines) are a form, one of many forms, in what are considered "demarcations." And the status and location of demarcation lines are negotiable.

You will have no doubt noticed that between the time the Ottoman Empire unconditionally surrendered in 1918, until as 1922, when the Allied Powers published the Mandate for Palestine that the administration of Palestine, was within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers. This is an example of designation by authority.

You will no doubt notice that there is an US-Canadian International Boundary Commission to handle border disputes. this can alter such demarcations by dispute resolution. And it can be altered by natural occurrences; as in the case of the shift in course by the Rio Grande.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK, but there has never been a treaty or agreement to alter Palestine's international borders.

 

[Shusha]

“We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaised Khazars, Greco-Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews and Judeans. Their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga, with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan,” Elhaik claims.

The conclusions from the paper:

We compared two genetic models for European Jewish ancestry depicting a mixed Khazarian–European–Middle Eastern and sole Middle Eastern origins. Contemporary populations were used as surrogates to the ancient Khazars and Judeans, and their relatedness to European Jews was compared over a comprehensive set of genetic analyses. Our findings support the Khazarian hypothesis depicting a large Near Eastern–Caucasus ancestry along with Southern European, Middle Eastern, and Eastern European ancestries, in agreement with recent studies and oral and written traditions. We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaized Khazars, Greco–Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews, and Judeans and that their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan.


So all your bullshit that the Jewish people have no rights to the territory in question because they have no ancestry there is just that -- bullshit.

 

[Shusha]

OK, but there has never been a treaty or agreement to alter Palestine's international borders.

Which is why Israel has borders with Jordan and with Egypt in the place that they are.

 

[Hollie]

I have read Elhaik's paper, several times in fact..

Clearly, you didn't read to the end.

Clearly you are helpless to comprehend the paper or its evidence...cognitive-dissonance, once yet again you denied that Khazar DNA was available today, I exposed one of a number of your errors...keep spinning




That led geneticist Eran Elhaik of the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health in Baltimore, Maryland to try to reconcile those conflicting studies. And that led him to genetic data that he believes proves the Khazar Hypothesis is accurate.

Elhaik found ancestral genetic signatures that pointed clearly to the Caucasus. He also found such signatures that pointed the Middle East, but to a far, far smaller degree.

“We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaised Khazars, Greco-Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews and Judeans. Their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga, with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan,” Elhaik claims.

Previous genetic studies appeared to support the Rhineland Hypothesis, which posits that Ashkenazi Jews descended from Jews who fled the Land of Israel after the Moslem conquest in 638 AD, settling in southern Europe and slowly working their way north. 50,000 supposedly later moved from the Rhineland into eastern Europe in the later Middle Ages.

But there are serious problems with the Rhineland Hypothesis – so serious that some of its proponents actually posited a Divine miracle to account for them.

For example, the population of Eastern European Jews surged from 50,000 in the 15th century CE to about 8 million by the start of the 20th century – a birthrate 10 times greater than the local non-Jewish population that surrounded them. That implausible population surge would have had to take place despite the economic hardship, wars and pogroms that ravaged those Jewish communities, and the plague that ravaged the entire region.

Another problem with the Rhineland Hypothesis is Yiddish, the language of Eastern European Jews.

“Yiddish, the language of Central and Eastern European Jews, began as a Slavic language,” Elhaik notes. It was classified as a dialect of High German later.

European Jews and their ancestral groups in the Caucasus and Middle East share a relatively high risk of diseases such as cystic fibrosis, as well – another possible indicator of origins.

Elhaik’s study, published in the British journal Genome Biology and Evolution, compares the genomes of 1,287 unrelated individuals who come from eight Jewish and 74 non-Jewish populations.

As usual, you provided no source for what you cut and pasted. Either you intended to again plagiarize material pretending it's your own or you knew that the tabloid
"beforeitsnews.com" was not a site for reliable science data.

That's not surprising as your cutting and pasting comes from a tabloid web site. You have made it clear that your cutting and pasting requires fact checking as the sources of your cutting and pasting often includes some of the most notorious internet tabloids.

While the web can be a valuable source of data, it can also be a playground for those who have little background in promoting facts but have an obvious agenda to press.

New Genetic Study Reportedly Proves Khazar Ancestry For Ashkenazi Jews | Power Elite

"beforeitsnews.com".

Super.

The site you plagiarized from actually links to "failedmessiah.com"

Wow.

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK, but there has never been a treaty or agreement to alter Palestine's international borders.

Which is why Israel has borders with Jordan and with Egypt in the place that they are.

None of them have the authority to change Palestine's borders.

 

[Hollie]

OK, but there has never been a treaty or agreement to alter Palestine's international borders.

Which is why Israel has borders with Jordan and with Egypt in the place that they are.

None of them have the authority to change Palestine's borders.

As an expert in international law, I'm sure the Jordanians and Egyptians will be reaching out to you for legal advice.

Otherwise, can you email the parties involved and express your outrage?

 

[Sixties Fan]

OK, but there has never been a treaty or agreement to alter Palestine's international borders.

Which is why Israel has borders with Jordan and with Egypt in the place that they are.

None of them have the authority to change Palestine's borders.

Palestine = Israel

All of Palestine = Israel

Israel approved of those borders, those are the borders.

 

[Ventura77]

“We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaised Khazars, Greco-Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews and Judeans. Their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga, with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan,” Elhaik claims.

The conclusions from the paper:

We compared two genetic models for European Jewish ancestry depicting a mixed Khazarian–European–Middle Eastern and sole Middle Eastern origins. Contemporary populations were used as surrogates to the ancient Khazars and Judeans, and their relatedness to European Jews was compared over a comprehensive set of genetic analyses. Our findings support the Khazarian hypothesis depicting a large Near Eastern–Caucasus ancestry along with Southern European, Middle Eastern, and Eastern European ancestries, in agreement with recent studies and oral and written traditions. We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaized Khazars, Greco–Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews, and Judeans and that their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan.


So all your bullshit that the Jewish people have no rights to the territory in question because they have no ancestry there is just that -- bullshit.

LOL!!!! You don't even understand my position you puerile propaganda drone...the argument that Jews are genetically related to the ancient Hebrews is false, that is what Elhaik proves, yet this is hardly the question upon which 'rights' hinge...even if Israeli Jews could prove a genetic link to the ancient tribes there is no precedent for an absentee land-claim spanning 13 centuries. The hilarious part is that you cannot understand Elhaik's paper at all...if you believe that 20th century Jews have 'rights to territory in Palestine' please present proof...not more of your static and bluster---PROOF!!!!! We both know you cannot do that...go back to your Hasbara-studies...

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK, but there has never been a treaty or agreement to alter Palestine's international borders.

Which is why Israel has borders with Jordan and with Egypt in the place that they are.

None of them have the authority to change Palestine's borders.

As an expert in international law, I'm sure the Jordanians and Egyptians will be reaching out to you for legal advice.

Otherwise, can you email the parties involved and express your outrage?

I am sure that would not override the billions a year the US gives them to sign those agreements.

 

[Shusha]

...if you believe that 20th century Jews have 'rights to territory in Palestine' please present proof...not more of your static and bluster---PROOF!!!!!

List your criteria for the right of a people to self-determination and sovereignty.

 

[Hollie]

“We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaised Khazars, Greco-Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews and Judeans. Their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga, with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan,” Elhaik claims.

The conclusions from the paper:

We compared two genetic models for European Jewish ancestry depicting a mixed Khazarian–European–Middle Eastern and sole Middle Eastern origins. Contemporary populations were used as surrogates to the ancient Khazars and Judeans, and their relatedness to European Jews was compared over a comprehensive set of genetic analyses. Our findings support the Khazarian hypothesis depicting a large Near Eastern–Caucasus ancestry along with Southern European, Middle Eastern, and Eastern European ancestries, in agreement with recent studies and oral and written traditions. We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaized Khazars, Greco–Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews, and Judeans and that their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan.


So all your bullshit that the Jewish people have no rights to the territory in question because they have no ancestry there is just that -- bullshit.

LOL!!!! You don't even understand my position you puerile propaganda drone...the argument that Jews are genetically related to the ancient Hebrews is false, that is what Elhaik proves, yet this is hardly the question upon which 'rights' hinge...even if Israeli Jews could prove a genetic link to the ancient tribes there is no precedent for an absentee land-claim spanning 13 centuries. The hilarious part is that you cannot understand Elhaik's paper at all...if you believe that 20th century Jews have 'rights to territory in Palestine' please present proof...not more of your static and bluster---PROOF!!!!! We both know you cannot do that...go back to your Hasbara-studies...

How does anyone refute your cutting and pasting from an authoritative source such as "failedmessiah.com"?

As I understand it, they are as authoritative as your earlier cutting and pasting from some loon who is apparently a member of the "Flat Earth Society".

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK, but there has never been a treaty or agreement to alter Palestine's international borders.

Which is why Israel has borders with Jordan and with Egypt in the place that they are.

None of them have the authority to change Palestine's borders.

Palestine = Israel

All of Palestine = Israel

Israel approved of those borders, those are the borders.

Israel also signed agreements saying that territory is Palestine.

But, then again, Israel is a lying sack of shit country. They will do anything hoping nobody will call then on it.

 

[Hollie]

OK, but there has never been a treaty or agreement to alter Palestine's international borders.

Which is why Israel has borders with Jordan and with Egypt in the place that they are.

None of them have the authority to change Palestine's borders.

As an expert in international law, I'm sure the Jordanians and Egyptians will be reaching out to you for legal advice.

Otherwise, can you email the parties involved and express your outrage?

I am sure that would no override the billions a year the US gives them to sign those agreements.

Another retreat to a conspiracy theory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK, but there has never been a treaty or agreement to alter Palestine's international borders.

Which is why Israel has borders with Jordan and with Egypt in the place that they are.

None of them have the authority to change Palestine's borders.

As an expert in international law, I'm sure the Jordanians and Egyptians will be reaching out to you for legal advice.

Otherwise, can you email the parties involved and express your outrage?

I am sure that would no override the billions a year the US gives them to sign those agreements.

Another retreat to a conspiracy theory.

It's true. Look it up.

 

[Hollie]

OK, but there has never been a treaty or agreement to alter Palestine's international borders.

Which is why Israel has borders with Jordan and with Egypt in the place that they are.

None of them have the authority to change Palestine's borders.

Palestine = Israel

All of Palestine = Israel

Israel approved of those borders, those are the borders.

Israel also signed agreements saying that territory is Palestine.

But, then again, Israel is a lying sack of shit country. They will do anything hoping nobody will call then on it.

All the more reason to bring the full weight and authority of your international law presence to resolve this.

Maybe you could, ya' know, sue the shit out of em'.

 

[Hollie]

Which is why Israel has borders with Jordan and with Egypt in the place that they are.

None of them have the authority to change Palestine's borders.

As an expert in international law, I'm sure the Jordanians and Egyptians will be reaching out to you for legal advice.

Otherwise, can you email the parties involved and express your outrage?

I am sure that would no override the billions a year the US gives them to sign those agreements.

Another retreat to a conspiracy theory.

It's true. Look it up.

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

...if you believe that 20th century Jews have 'rights to territory in Palestine' please present proof...not more of your static and bluster---PROOF!!!!!

List your criteria for the right of a people to self-determination and sovereignty.

"A people" are the people inside a defined territory. The Palestinians are the original citizens of Palestine, a territory defined by international borders.

The people of the place are the sovereigns within their own defined territory. They do not have sovereignty outside their own territory. The French, for example, have no sovereignty in Britain.

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK, but there has never been a treaty or agreement to alter Palestine's international borders.

Which is why Israel has borders with Jordan and with Egypt in the place that they are.

None of them have the authority to change Palestine's borders.

Palestine = Israel

All of Palestine = Israel

Israel approved of those borders, those are the borders.

Israel also signed agreements saying that territory is Palestine.

But, then again, Israel is a lying sack of shit country. They will do anything hoping nobody will call then on it.

All the more reason to bring the full weight and authority of your international law presence to resolve this.

Maybe you could, ya' know, sue the shit out of em'.

Indeed, the Palestinians are working on that as we speak.