You Were Warned...Pat. Act

[Seawytch]

Civil libertarians and liberals have been railing against the Patriot Act since its inception. You were told that you like it under a Republican but would hate it under a Democrat, but you didn't listen.

One Senator told you back then EXACTLY what would happen under these new laws...

Watch The One Senator Who Voted Against The Patriot Act Warn What Would Happen

One provision that troubles me a great deal is a provision that permits the government under FISA to compel the production of records from any business regarding any person, if that information is sought in connection with an investigation of terrorism or espionage.

Now we're not talking here about travel records pertaining to a terrorist suspect, which we all can see can be highly relevant to an investigation of a terrorist plot. FISA already gives the FBI the power to get airline, train, hotel, car rental and other records of a suspect.

But under this bill, the government can compel the disclosure of the personal records of anyone -- perhaps someone who worked with, or lived next door to, or went to school with, or sat on an airplane with, or has been seen in the company of, or whose phone number was called by -- the target of the investigation.

And under this new provisions all business records can be compelled, including those containing sensitive personal information like medical records from hospitals or doctors, or educational records, or records of what books someone has taken out of the library. This is an enormous expansion of authority, under a law that provides only minimal judicial supervision.​

You were warned...

so you agree that obama has basically been a hypocrite as to his use of such mechanisms?

Now that they've proved their point they will surely repeal it since they have the ability to do so. Oh wait--you LIKE it now that Obama's in charge ?

Only 26 Republicans voted against reauthorization. Guess whose court this ball is in? There are 54 Democrats and a couple hundred republicans to start calling.

uh huh, slice the bologna any way you like, why is obama using it?

Because they CAN...just like we warned y'all about when these powers were granted under the Bush Administration. "Wait until it's a Democrat in office" we said. "It's WAR!!!!" the right screamed.

Well now it's come to bite on the ass. The broad, sweeping powers that Dick scared everyone into carry over into the next Admin...imagine that.

 

[Redfish]

so you agree that obama has basically been a hypocrite as to his use of such mechanisms?

Only 26 Republicans voted against reauthorization. Guess whose court this ball is in? There are 54 Democrats and a couple hundred republicans to start calling.

uh huh, slice the bologna any way you like, why is obama using it?

Because they CAN...just like we warned y'all about when these powers were granted under the Bush Administration. "Wait until it's a Democrat in office" we said. "It's WAR!!!!" the right screamed.

Well now it's come to bite on the ass. The broad, sweeping powers that Dick scared everyone into carry over into the next Admin...imagine that.

Obama could stop it. But instead he has expanded it.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Civil libertarians and liberals have been railing against the Patriot Act since its inception. You were told that you like it under a Republican but would hate it under a Democrat, but you didn't listen.

One Senator told you back then EXACTLY what would happen under these new laws...

Watch The One Senator Who Voted Against The Patriot Act Warn What Would Happen

One provision that troubles me a great deal is a provision that permits the government under FISA to compel the production of records from any business regarding any person, if that information is sought in connection with an investigation of terrorism or espionage.

Now we're not talking here about travel records pertaining to a terrorist suspect, which we all can see can be highly relevant to an investigation of a terrorist plot. FISA already gives the FBI the power to get airline, train, hotel, car rental and other records of a suspect.

But under this bill, the government can compel the disclosure of the personal records of anyone -- perhaps someone who worked with, or lived next door to, or went to school with, or sat on an airplane with, or has been seen in the company of, or whose phone number was called by -- the target of the investigation.

And under this new provisions all business records can be compelled, including those containing sensitive personal information like medical records from hospitals or doctors, or educational records, or records of what books someone has taken out of the library. This is an enormous expansion of authority, under a law that provides only minimal judicial supervision.​

You were warned...

The problem is not with the fact that the government has cobbled together an ability to engage in needed investigations.

The problem stems from the fact that such concentrated powers are inherently dangerous and therefore require considerable oversight.

Checks and balances are never needed quite as much as when the power needed to do a necessary task overlaps with our perfectly valid concerns with individual liberties and privacy interests.

Here, clearly, the "oversight" has been woefully lacking. If that could be corrected, much of the potential damage inherent in the concentration of power could be removed and/or minimized.

Even a good judge can make mistakes and authorize some of these intrusions based on misguided thinking -- or worse, based on false factual allegations in the applications.

But the judicial branch is NOT the sole entity capable of providing oversight. The legislative branch should be proactively engaged, too. Such oversight is even provided for IN the legislation. But it looks like Congress has been sitting there with its collective thumb up its collective ass and busy NOT providing the much needed oversight.

It is a correctable problem. It needs to be corrected. Stat.

 

[Wacky Quacky]

The Patriot Act has been changed and expanded far beyond it's original intent. It's a weapon that the people never imagined would be turned on them when the government chose to do so. Now the government has chosen to use that weapon against the very freedoms it is pledged to protect.

The Patriot Act is living up to exactly what it was intended. It was intended to increase government powers so it could spy on as many people as they wanted with as small a paper trail as possible.

To think the government WOULDN'T abuse it is the height of nievity.

It amazes me that right wingers, who always scream about government corruption and ineptitude, were more than happy to give the government broad powers to spy on american's private lives.

its amazing to me that obama is using it after his full throated denunciations ......and since you missed it, it passed and continued to pass with huge bi partisan sppt......

Obama's just another idiot politician who I wouldn't vote for if he put a gun to my head. And anyone who actually believed that ANY politician wouldn't abuse the power that scaredy-cat right wingers gave them, is an even bigger idiot.

 

[Trajan]

so you agree that obama has basically been a hypocrite as to his use of such mechanisms?

Only 26 Republicans voted against reauthorization. Guess whose court this ball is in? There are 54 Democrats and a couple hundred republicans to start calling.

uh huh, slice the bologna any way you like, why is obama using it?

Because they CAN...just like we warned y'all about when these powers were granted under the Bush Administration. "Wait until it's a Democrat in office" we said. "It's WAR!!!!" the right screamed.

Well now it's come to bite on the ass. The broad, sweeping powers that Dick scared everyone into carry over into the next Admin...imagine that.

so, obama is a hypocrite.....yes?


who is "we"?


who is "dick"?

 

[Trajan]

The Patriot Act is living up to exactly what it was intended. It was intended to increase government powers so it could spy on as many people as they wanted with as small a paper trail as possible.

To think the government WOULDN'T abuse it is the height of nievity.

It amazes me that right wingers, who always scream about government corruption and ineptitude, were more than happy to give the government broad powers to spy on american's private lives.

its amazing to me that obama is using it after his full throated denunciations ......and since you missed it, it passed and continued to pass with huge bi partisan sppt......

Obama's just another idiot politician who I wouldn't vote for if he put a gun to my head. And anyone who actually believed that ANY politician wouldn't abuse the power that scaredy-cat right wingers gave them, is an even bigger idiot.

ah so now we get the nub of it- its Bushs fault....is it bushs fault the IRS went rogue too?

and one more time;

and since you missed it, it passed and continued to pass with huge bi partisan sppt....

 

[dilloduck]

so you agree that obama has basically been a hypocrite as to his use of such mechanisms?

Only 26 Republicans voted against reauthorization. Guess whose court this ball is in? There are 54 Democrats and a couple hundred republicans to start calling.

uh huh, slice the bologna any way you like, why is obama using it?

Because they CAN...just like we warned y'all about when these powers were granted under the Bush Administration. "Wait until it's a Democrat in office" we said. "It's WAR!!!!" the right screamed.

Well now it's come to bite on the ass. The broad, sweeping powers that Dick scared everyone into carry over into the next Admin...imagine that.

But he promised--HE PROMISED to do away with them. I assume you can figure out where someone's credibility goes when they fail to do what they PROMISED. It's refreshing that you now see him as a power hungry politician who can't help but abuse it.

 

[ba1614]

Was the one who voted against it the same one who renewed it in 2011 and doubled down with the NDAA?

 

[Wacky Quacky]

its amazing to me that obama is using it after his full throated denunciations ......and since you missed it, it passed and continued to pass with huge bi partisan sppt......

Obama's just another idiot politician who I wouldn't vote for if he put a gun to my head. And anyone who actually believed that ANY politician wouldn't abuse the power that scaredy-cat right wingers gave them, is an even bigger idiot.

ah so now we get the nub of it- its Bushs fault....is it bushs fault the IRS went rogue too?

and one more time;

and since you missed it, it passed and continued to pass with huge bi partisan sppt....

Did I only blame Bush? Please point out where I have put the blame solely on Bush? I blame both parties. I blame all of Washington, then and now. But more so, I blame "we the people" for continuously voting in the fuckers that are doing this to us.

 

[Trajan]

Obama's just another idiot politician who I wouldn't vote for if he put a gun to my head. And anyone who actually believed that ANY politician wouldn't abuse the power that scaredy-cat right wingers gave them, is an even bigger idiot.

ah so now we get the nub of it- its Bushs fault....is it bushs fault the IRS went rogue too?

and one more time;

and since you missed it, it passed and continued to pass with huge bi partisan sppt....

Did I only blame Bush? Please point out where I have put the blame solely on Bush? I blame both parties. I blame all of Washington, then and now. But more so, I blame "we the people" for continuously voting in the fuckers that are doing this to us.

no don't try that, you mentioned party or affiliation, and inferred becasue he had it , he had to use it, since he was given it....... well he had the IRS too...so? forget party ....and you skate by any mention of the fact that obama could live up to his past denunciations of such by not using it, or expanding it, yet, it appears he did and has, every 3 months.

and this blame everyone well, thats kind of a dead end, one cannot be against everything, shit happens. Of course I am not in a snit over this, I am just looking for some honest leftys who will o call obama out for what he is and has been and it usually is on topics that he took most strenuous stances against like court appointments/nominations/filibusters etc.

 

[Papageorgio]

so you agree that obama has basically been a hypocrite as to his use of such mechanisms?

Only 26 Republicans voted against reauthorization. Guess whose court this ball is in? There are 54 Democrats and a couple hundred republicans to start calling.

uh huh, slice the bologna any way you like, why is obama using it?

Because they CAN...just like we warned y'all about when these powers were granted under the Bush Administration. "Wait until it's a Democrat in office" we said. "It's WAR!!!!" the right screamed.

Well now it's come to bite on the ass. The broad, sweeping powers that Dick scared everyone into carry over into the next Admin...imagine that.

In 2001, 98 Senators voted for the Patriot Act and one did not vote. That is a bipartisan vote. In the House 357 yes votes, 145 were Democratic votes. That is also a bipartisan vote. So please spare us the partisan bullshit.

It also proved the majority could be wrong.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

uh huh, slice the bologna any way you like, why is obama using it?

Because they CAN...just like we warned y'all about when these powers were granted under the Bush Administration. "Wait until it's a Democrat in office" we said. "It's WAR!!!!" the right screamed.

Well now it's come to bite on the ass. The broad, sweeping powers that Dick scared everyone into carry over into the next Admin...imagine that.

In 2001, 98 Senators voted for the Patriot Act and one did not vote. That is a bipartisan vote. In the House 357 yes votes, 145 were Democratic votes. That is also a bipartisan vote. So please spare us the partisan bullshit.

It also proved the majority could be wrong.

Or, it proved that the majority was right in principle, but that the application has been seriously defective.

However, I fully agree that the passage of these laws have been bi-partisan.

 

[Papageorgio]

Because they CAN...just like we warned y'all about when these powers were granted under the Bush Administration. "Wait until it's a Democrat in office" we said. "It's WAR!!!!" the right screamed.

Well now it's come to bite on the ass. The broad, sweeping powers that Dick scared everyone into carry over into the next Admin...imagine that.

In 2001, 98 Senators voted for the Patriot Act and one did not vote. That is a bipartisan vote. In the House 357 yes votes, 145 were Democratic votes. That is also a bipartisan vote. So please spare us the partisan bullshit.

It also proved the majority could be wrong.

Or, it proved that the majority was right in principle, but that the application has been seriously defective.

However, I fully agree that the passage of these laws have been bi-partisan.

I thought it was poorly thought out and passed as a knee jerk reaction.

 

[Plasmaball]

and naturally Obama was forced to use those mechanisms--because -well--Bush put em there.

Well in a sense yes, because who is going to give up that sort of power.? The thing is though it doesnt matter who is in the white house. This was going to happen. The whole thing should be repealed. This really isnt a partisan issue no matter how hard you people ( left and right) try to make this issue out to be one.

Its rather sad honestly you rather score cheaps shots against left leaning people then to just agree to remove it .

Then again bottom feeders are like that.

 

[Plasmaball]

ah so now we get the nub of it- its Bushs fault....is it bushs fault the IRS went rogue too?

and one more time;

and since you missed it, it passed and continued to pass with huge bi partisan sppt....

Did I only blame Bush? Please point out where I have put the blame solely on Bush? I blame both parties. I blame all of Washington, then and now. But more so, I blame "we the people" for continuously voting in the fuckers that are doing this to us.

no don't try that, you mentioned party or affiliation, and inferred becasue he had it , he had to use it, since he was given it....... well he had the IRS too...so? forget party ....and you skate by any mention of the fact that obama could live up to his past denunciations of such by not using it, or expanding it, yet, it appears he did and has, every 3 months.

and this blame everyone well, thats kind of a dead end, one cannot be against everything, shit happens. Of course I am not in a snit over this, I am just looking for some honest leftys who will o call obama out for what he is and has been and it usually is on topics that he took most strenuous stances against like court appointments/nominations/filibusters etc.

The irs is a different and very small issue compared to this. Its also a weak argument to he making. Stop trying to score cheap points with lame gotcha gimmicks. You just look stupid.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

In 2001, 98 Senators voted for the Patriot Act and one did not vote. That is a bipartisan vote. In the House 357 yes votes, 145 were Democratic votes. That is also a bipartisan vote. So please spare us the partisan bullshit.

It also proved the majority could be wrong.

Or, it proved that the majority was right in principle, but that the application has been seriously defective.

However, I fully agree that the passage of these laws have been bi-partisan.

I thought it was poorly thought out and passed as a knee jerk reaction.

I never thought that. In fact, I still support the USA PATRIOT Act in principle. My support has always been conditioned on genuine oversight. You know, that "checks and balances" stuff we've all heard about.

Sadly, I have to admit that my faith in oversight has probably been a bit on the naive side.

I think what's needed is some corrective legislation to Amend the law in a way that incentivizes genuine oversight by (at the very least) Congress.

If it cannot be properly monitored, then clearly it IS too dangerous. The problem with that is that tossing it out entirely probably leaves us with some self-inflicted blindness to emerging threats and handicapped even further in our ability to investigate such threats. I don't want the solution to the problem we have been discussing to come at that much of a cost. The cost could be another massive "spectacular" terrorist event which could otherwise be avoided.

I refuse to accept that we have to settle for that prospect. We are collectively too smart to permit ourselves to be handicapped, especially by our own choice, like that. Such a "solution" borders on insanity. We can do better. MUCH better. And we should.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Maybe when the Patriot Act comes up for reauthorization, more than 26 Republicans and less than 54 Democrats will vote against it.

Or the President will Veto it?

Nawww!

 

[The2ndAmendment]

The data gathering being done by Obama's administration is beyond that which is allowed by the patriot act.

BTW, wytchey, this is not a partisan issue.

At least the liberals are admitting it's a problem, even if their blaming someone else.

 

[Trajan]

Did I only blame Bush? Please point out where I have put the blame solely on Bush? I blame both parties. I blame all of Washington, then and now. But more so, I blame "we the people" for continuously voting in the fuckers that are doing this to us.

no don't try that, you mentioned party or affiliation, and inferred becasue he had it , he had to use it, since he was given it....... well he had the IRS too...so? forget party ....and you skate by any mention of the fact that obama could live up to his past denunciations of such by not using it, or expanding it, yet, it appears he did and has, every 3 months.

and this blame everyone well, thats kind of a dead end, one cannot be against everything, shit happens. Of course I am not in a snit over this, I am just looking for some honest leftys who will o call obama out for what he is and has been and it usually is on topics that he took most strenuous stances against like court appointments/nominations/filibusters etc.

The irs is a different and very small issue compared to this. Its also a weak argument to he making. Stop trying to score cheap points with lame gotcha gimmicks. You just look stupid.

so focus on the example and one small snippet and ignore the rest, who's stupid? You also suffer a lack of integrity......But I had that figured out when you started to dance.


whats the issue? whats your defense? Oh right, so your argument is obama was given the power , he continued and thats that....

 

[Plasmaball]

no don't try that, you mentioned party or affiliation, and inferred becasue he had it , he had to use it, since he was given it....... well he had the IRS too...so? forget party ....and you skate by any mention of the fact that obama could live up to his past denunciations of such by not using it, or expanding it, yet, it appears he did and has, every 3 months.

and this blame everyone well, thats kind of a dead end, one cannot be against everything, shit happens. Of course I am not in a snit over this, I am just looking for some honest leftys who will o call obama out for what he is and has been and it usually is on topics that he took most strenuous stances against like court appointments/nominations/filibusters etc.

The irs is a different and very small issue compared to this. Its also a weak argument to he making. Stop trying to score cheap points with lame gotcha gimmicks. You just look stupid.

so focus on the example and one small snippet and ignore the rest, who's stupid? You also suffer a lack of integrity......But I had that figured out when you started to dance.


whats the issue? whats your defense? Oh right, so your argument is obama was given the power , he continued and thats that....

My defense is that since 08 i have been railing on Obama for not repealing the PA. Go ahead do a search on here. I railed on him for the NDAA as well. I was against this power grab from the beginning. unlike a lot of people who just turned the other way or said they had nothing to hide. I have nothing to hide and i know full well this was an abuse of power.

My argument is that Obama was a failure, but i think personally had Romrom won he would have failed as well. Its gone beyond the desk of the President now. Regardless Obama failed and this is his baby as well as Bushes.

It will be the next Presidents as well if its not removed completely.

So what excuse you want to try now