Dems, don't let Repubs bamboozle you, America IS a democracy.

[BS Filter]

I said 'democrats', not 'most people'. I also doubt that most people do NOT believe that any president elected without the majority of the popular vote is illegitimate, despite how often and how many democrats push the idea to the contrary. And I am not arguing for rule by the majority, I am perfectly fine with the system of gov't and the electoral process as it is now. It was designed to prevent as much as possible the tyranny of the majority, and if that means a president gets elected without the majority of the popular vote, I am fine with that.



No, that's what you'd like me to say and the way you'd like it to be. Unfortunately for you and the democrats, that ain't the way it is and I don't have to translate nothin'. The democrats own the major population centers, so it isn't surprising that if they win the future popular vote in many cases, they could lose the election. Tough shit, bub.

You can bet the farm that any democrat elected President without winning the popular vote would never be called an illegitimate President. Democrats don't respect our Constitution.

 

[Curried Goats]

/——/ And I’d you read the entire link, you’d see the quote from one of the founders. And yes, people use democracy as a synonym of a Republic, but they are different.
when asked by a passerby what sort of government the constitutional convention had formulated for the new nation, Benjamin Franklin memorably replied, "A republic, if you can keep it"

Why should I give a shit about a quote from a Founder? That isn't the prerequisite to determine whether or not we are a democracy. Your own link says a democracy is a synonym to a Republic. But it's much simpler than that. How do we determine who represents us in government? Through democratic elections of course. There is nothing incompatible about being a Republic and Democracy. They describe very similar things and in this case slightly different aspects of our government. We are a Republic because we are a Nation who's ultimate power resides in the people and the people exercise that power through democratic elections to appoint people to represent us in government.

 

[Rumpole]

Why didn't these lovers of democracy give women the right to vote?

That is a point which only exists as an issue in post women's suffrage modernity. In the era in which the constitution was written, it is clear that 'we the people' did not include Blacks, minority groups, or women, and it would have been absurd to even think it, at the time. But that was how things were in those days, and it would be a fool's errand to apply the mores of today, back then. Doing so is a logical fallacy called 'presentism'. But I sense you know this and your question is a rhetorical one, possibly in jest?

 

[Cellblock2429]

Why should I give a shit about a quote from a Founder? That isn't the prerequisite to determine whether or not we are a democracy. Your own link says a democracy is a synonym to a Republic. But it's much simpler than that. How do we determine who represents us in government? Through democratic elections of course. There is nothing incompatible about being a Republic and Democracy. They describe very similar things and in this case slightly different aspects of our government. We are a Republic because we are a Nation who's ultimate power resides in the people and the people exercise that power through democratic elections to appoint people to represent us in government.

/------/ "Why should I give a shit about a quote from a Founder? "
It's mind-boggling how little you understand about our founding. It's called original intent. It's how constitutional experts and the Courts determine what the Founders meant in the Constitution. The fact you don't know this is just sad.
I was taught this in High School, but that was a long time ago.

Original Intent | The First Amendment Encyclopedia​

The term original intent refers to the notion that the judiciary should interpret the Constitution (including its amendments) in accordance with the understanding of its framers. The courts' commitment to original intent is somewhat tested, however, by the reality that the framers' intentions are not always easy to identify.

Benjamin Franklin | The First Amendment Encyclopedia​

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), printer, inventor, scientist, and statesman, occupies a distinguished place in U.S. history. He not only played an influential role in the Revolutionary War era and the fight for American independence, but also helped to shape the U.S. Constitution and vision for the new nation.

 

[BS Filter]

That is a point which only exists as an issue in post women's suffrage modernity. In the era in which the constitution was written, it is clear that 'we the people' did not include Blacks, minority groups, or women, and it would have been absurd to even think it, at the time. But that was how things were in those days, and it would be a fool's errand to apply the mores of today, back then. Doing so is a logical fallacy called 'presentism'. But I sense you know this and your question is a rhetorical one, possibly in jest?

Yes. It's a rhetorical question in jest directed at the leftists who keep chanting that we are a democracy like it's something magical and hasn't had challenges.

 

[BackAgain]

Update:

Thank God and thank our Framers we are a Constitutional republic.

 

[Rumpole]

/——/ And I’d you read the entire link, you’d see the quote from one of the founders. And yes, people use democracy as a synonym of a Republic, but they are different.
when asked by a passerby what sort of government the constitutional convention had formulated for the new nation, Benjamin Franklin memorably replied, "A republic, if you can keep it"

That doesn't prove the point you are alluding to. 'Republic' is a broad term. In it's broadest sense, it is merely a nation of either appointed or elected leaders, as opposed to a Monarchy, where the king is crowned by heritage. A Democracy is a Republic of a certain type, and to qualify it even further, a representative democracy is a Republic of a certain type. If you look avast at the various nations, you'll find all kinds of Republics, including Socialist Republics, Islamic Republics, and Republics that are representative democracies, which are those mostly of the west and a number of other nations.

Types of Republics:

1. Presidential Republic: In a presidential republic, the head of state and head of government are the same person, who is elected by the people through direct or indirect elections. The president serves as the chief executive, with the power to appoint ministers, veto legislation, and oversee the administration of the country. Examples of presidential republics include the United States, Brazil, France, and South Korea.
2. Parliamentary Republic: A parliamentary republic is a type of republic where the head of state is different from the head of government. The head of state is usually a ceremonial figurehead, while the head of government is the prime minister, who is responsible for running the government and implementing policies. The prime minister is elected by the parliament or legislative body, and the government is accountable to the parliament. Examples of parliamentary republics include Germany, Italy, India, and Ireland.
3. Federal Republic: In a federal republic, the power is divided between the central government and the individual states or provinces. The central government has limited powers, while the individual states or provinces have their own powers, such as the power to pass laws and collect taxes. Examples of federal republics include the United States, Germany, India, and Brazil.
4. Constitutional Republic: A constitutional republic is a type of republic where the government's powers are limited by a constitution or a set of fundamental laws. The constitution usually outlines the government's structure and functions, as well as the individual rights and freedoms that are protected by the government. Examples of constitutional republics include the United States and India.
5. Calvinist Republic: A Calvinist Republic is a type of republic that follows the religious doctrines of Calvinism. The government is based on the principles of Calvinism, which emphasize individual liberty, limited government, and the rule of law. Examples of Calvinist republics include the Netherlands during the Dutch Republic era.
6. Islamic Republic: An Islamic republic is a type of republic that incorporates Islamic principles and laws into its constitution and legal system. The head of state and government is usually a president or prime minister, who is elected by the people. Examples of Islamic republics include Iran and Pakistan.
7. Democratic Republic: A democratic republic is a type of republic that combines democratic principles with a republican form of government. The head of state is usually a president, who is elected by the people, and the government is accountable to the people through democratic processes. Examples of democratic republics include the United States, India, and South Africa.
8. Socialist Republic: A socialist republic is a type of republic that emphasizes social justice, equality, and community welfare. The government usually plays an active role in ensuring social and economic rights, such as access to education, healthcare, and housing. Examples of socialist republics include Cuba and Venezuela and the former USSR.

Note that a nation can be hybrids, combinations of any of the above. If I were to include all the terms describing the USA, I would call it a Federal Constitutional Republic, a representative democracy aligned with a constitution in a federalist system with a bicameral legislature and three co-equal branches of government presiding over a consortium of states.

The point being of the OP, that it is silly, and wrong, when some Republicans are going around exclaiming that 'America is not a democracy'. They are waving the flag of ignorance on the depth, breadth and history of these terms.

 

[Rumpole]

Yes. It's a rhetorical question in jest directed at the leftists who keep chanting that we are a democracy like it's something magical and hasn't had challenges.

In theory, America is a democracy. That's a valid point. Some are arguing that we are an oligarchy, and it does seem in the practical and real world, there is a strong element of oligarchical control in our 'democracy'. Nevertheless, the terms, 'Democracy' and 'Republic, as the OP indicates, are not mutually exclusive terms.

 

[Rumpole]

You can bet the farm that any democrat elected President without winning the popular vote would never be called an illegitimate President. Democrats don't respect our Constitution.

Well, since there has never been an elected Democrat who didn't win the popular election, that's not a bet you are likely to wager any time soon.

 

[Lesh]

I said 'democrats', not 'most people'. I also doubt that most people do NOT believe that any president elected without the majority of the popular vote is illegitimate, despite how often and how many democrats push the idea to the contrary. And I am not arguing for rule by the majority, I am perfectly fine with the system of gov't and the electoral process as it is now. It was designed to prevent as much as possible the tyranny of the majority, and if that means a president gets elected without the majority of the popular vote, I am fine with that.



No, that's what you'd like me to say and the way you'd like it to be. Unfortunately for you and the democrats, that ain't the way it is and I don't have to translate nothin'. The democrats own the major population centers, so it isn't surprising that if they win the future popular vote in many cases, they could lose the election. Tough shit, bub.

So you advocate rule of the minority. That’s the whole point of this lame thread

 

[Curried Goats]

/------/ "Why should I give a shit about a quote from a Founder? "
It's mind-boggling how little you understand about our founding. It's called original intent. It's how constitutional experts and the Courts determine what the Founders meant in the Constitution. The fact you don't know this is just sad.
I was taught this in High School, but that was a long time ago.

Original Intent | The First Amendment Encyclopedia​

The term original intent refers to the notion that the judiciary should interpret the Constitution (including its amendments) in accordance with the understanding of its framers. The courts' commitment to original intent is somewhat tested, however, by the reality that the framers' intentions are not always easy to identify.

Benjamin Franklin | The First Amendment Encyclopedia​

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), printer, inventor, scientist, and statesman, occupies a distinguished place in U.S. history. He not only played an influential role in the Revolutionary War era and the fight for American independence, but also helped to shape the U.S. Constitution and vision for the new nation.

Original intent certainly is a philosophy centered around people today doing fanfiction about what they think the original intent of the Founders was but that has fuck all to do with whether or not we are a democracy. Also Original Intent is stupid. The Founders never originally intended for women to vote and you won't find the word woman anywhere in the original constitution. Does that mean America doesn't have any women? Look how stupid your Bingo logic is.

 

[francoHFW]

I think you're out of your mind. Certainly most of the campaigning is done in the swing states, not much point in going to states that are pretty much always going to go one or the other. BUT - if we had a popular vote for the presidency you'd never see any campaigning outside of the big population centers. And BTW now we have a scumbag idiot democrat president who hardly ever campaigned at all.

I think it's amazing how many cheating lying Republicans there are around.... at any rate even if that were true, it would help be better than the crap we have now where the Democrat wins the popular vote every time... even after the GOP makes it as difficult as possible to vote for minorities the elderly and the young kid. And they just wanna make it more difficult because election fraud!!! who needs evidence when you have ignoramuses.... and all you are protecting is a giveaway to the rich and a screw job for everyone else as well as stupid foreign policy....

 

[francoHFW]

You can bet the farm that any democrat elected President without winning the popular vote would never be called an illegitimate President. Democrats don't respect our Constitution.

of course that hss never happened. But the only times it has happened, it has been the Democrats who let the Republicans win for the good of the country. Democrats want good government, Republicans want to steal for the rich and Brainwash the rubes...

 

[BS Filter]

Well, since there has never been an elected Democrat who didn't win the popular election, that's not a bet you are likely to wager any time soon.

It's common sense. No one is going to say their President is illegitimate because they lost the popular vote.

 

[BS Filter]

of course that hss never happened. But the only times it has happened, it has been the Democrats who let the Republicans win for the good of the country. Democrats want good government, Republicans want to steal for the rich and Brainwash the rubes...

You're an idiot.

 

[Lastamender]

{Caveat: those who are weaned on soundbites, one liners and snarky quips, who have subsequent short attention spans, ignore this post]

This trope has been floundering around the conservative/libertarian circles on the right for some time now, and now Trump
has joined the *RNAD regurgitators.

*Republic, Not A Democracy.

Some Republicans claim that 'proof' is in the pledge: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands..."

Uh, no...I'm sorry to inform you on the right, especially republicans, but "Republic", "Constitutional Republic", "Democracy", "Liberal Democracy", "Western Democracy", etc., these are NOT mutually exclusive terms. I know you think they are, but no, they aren't. They are general terms for basically the same principle, that a Democracy, using the broadest sense of the term, which is the most common use of the term, means a nation of liberty, where free speech, freedom of assembly, everyone of age has the vote, and other assorted virtues, prevail, as opposed to a monarchy or dictatorship or totalitarian non democratic nations.


To wit:

...[a] fundamental maxim of republican government...requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22

When Madison/Hamilton (i.e., "Publius") was making a distinction between 'Democracy' and 'Republic', favoring a Republic, he wasn't dissing 'Democracy' in the general sense, he/they were using the term in parochial sense, he was making a distinction between a government where laws are voted on by the electorate, a direct democracy, and one that has laws enacted by a Republic consisting of representative body, each of whose members are elected by popular vote. In America, this is the House of Representatives, Congress, and The Senate, i.e., our bicameral legislature which includes the Vice President when a tie vote needs to be broken. They weren't using the term as it has been used in academia, journalism and public spheres as it has ben used for a very long time.
Now, just in case some of you on the right assert that my Fed #22 quote is out of context, but no, because the meat of the statement stands alone and the context it was written in doesn't really change that fact, so context wasn't necessary.

And what was that context? Hamilton was actually arguing that the principle of equal suffrage between states of different sizes (of populations) contradicts the principle that it is a maxim of a republican form of government that the majority should prevail. Because he was arguing in favor of that principle, the principle, as a principle, it therefore stands alone --not to mention that he states that contrary arguments are 'sophistry'. Clearly, Hamilton favors that the majority should prevail in elections. This IS democracy.

Note that, as any encyclopedia will define, the term 'Republic', is a broad term, and is merely any government that is not a monarchy, where the leaders are either voted in OR appointed. also note that all elections, yes, the many thousands of them from local municipalities on up, excluding only the Vice Pres. and President, are voted via direct democracy. Thus only the VP and the Prez are voted via the EC. (Of course, laws are enacted via the legislature and the Prez but we do have laws, known as 'ballot initiatives' enacted by direct vote in many states). So, we can rightfully state that the vast majority of elections in the United States are done via direct democracy.

There are all types of Republics; there are Constitutional Republics (AKA Democratic Republics aligned with a Constitution) , Islamic Republics, There are Socialist Republics, Calvinist Republics, and so on. But, listening to any Republican, (of late) they will assert that a 'Republic" and a "Democracy' are not the same thing. Let's be clear on this point, A Republic may not include a democracy but a democracy is just about always a Republic, and so, most of the time, these days, when we say 'Republic' we are thinking of a democracy of a certain type, which is defined by whatever charter the Republic is aligned with and usually that is a representative democracy of some kind.

America is a Constitutional [Federal] Republic, AKA "Representative Democracy: AKA "Liberal Democracy" AKA "Western Democracy", noting that Representative Democracy refers to the House of Representatives, and not so much the Electoral College. If we didn't have an EC, America would still be a representative democracy. A number of western democracies, or rather, most of them, elect their president by direct, majority vote, yet are still known as 'representative democracies' precisely because of the fact that they have, like that of the US, an elected body of representatives who propose legislation on behalf of constituents. Now, if anyone is going to claim otherwise, no, I don't buy it, because I've learned this since middle school, read it everywhere I've ever read about politics, heard it spoken on the tongues of pundits, academicians, and leaders of every type since I was a teenager interested in the subject --- we were taught, without exception, "America is a Democracy", and "Democracy is core value in America".

I mean, this stupid RNAD thing, well, it's getting out of hand, and I can clearly see what is driving it: IN FACT, this idea that 'America is not a Democracy' became popular with Republicans right about the time they started losing the popular vote. Gee, what a coincidence, it seems they need to dis democracy in order to feel about about their winning the presidency via a particular fluke in the electoral college system. And don't tell me that not winning the popular vote doesn't bother Republicans. I know it really annoys Trump which is why he lied when he said that he would have won the popular vote had not 3 million illegals voted (in the 2016 election, which was a lie). No, y'all would definitely prefer to win the popular vote. Don't tell me otherwise, I just don't believe you.

It's really gotten a lot of traction now, the RNAD myth, given that in the last few decades Republicans are not winning the popular vote, so now they're trying to poo poo democracy, and doing a lot to diminish it, as a matter of fact, and this trope allows them to feel good about doing it. Republics don't like democracy given that of late, it appears that Democracy doesn't like Republicans. Well, they are bringing it on themselves.

Well, I got bad news for Republicans, either you have a democracy or Fascism. It's one or the other and you really need to decide which side you are on. You can move towards one, and when you do, you are moving away from the other, and that, in my view, describes Trumpism, a move away from democracy towards fascism. The Lincoln Repubs recognize this and have rejected Trumpism hence the "Lincoln Project".

America is all about elections. We have local elections in every municipality in America, thousands of them. We have elections in every state for various state level positions form Governor on down. And then we have elections for the House and the Senate, and finally, The President and Vice president via the electoral college. All sorts of elections, so don't tell me, those of you on the right, and Republicans, that America is "not" a democracy because the BS meter is redlining......

View attachment 772373

Any country that has as many elections as America has is a democracy. No, that it's a 'representative democracy' doesn't alter the statement. Remember, the term 'Democracy' has both broad and parochial usages.

The Trumpist claim that we're 'a republic, not a democracy' is even more dangerous than it sounds

Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to ...

www.dailykos.com

Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to statements like, “Trumpism is a threat to democracy!” While your first reaction might have been, “Huh?” or, “Are these stone-cold nincompoops out of their ever-loving minds?” the refrain remains a consistent rebuttal from the extreme right.

Responding to RNAD requires understanding what right-wing extremists mean when they say “a republic, not a democracy.” It means they don’t care about democracy. This line of argument provides an ideological justification for some of the most extreme actions being taken by members of the MAGAsphere—actions aimed at thwarting American democracy itself.

BINGO!

A democracy is often a term referring to....

1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
2. A nation where citizens enjoy certain freedoms, of speech, free assembly, freedom to work, be self-employed, to achieve one's aims, etc.
3. Freedom of religion, or freedom from religion
4. The right to vote once one is 18.
5. A nation with a government of elected leaders, either directly or indirectly.
6. A Republic, Federal, Constitutional, or otherwise, which is, essentially, a government of elected leaders, indirectly or directly, whose legislation is enacted by the elected representatives constituting a 'representative democracy' generally under the governance of a constitution.

Definition of republic

1a(1): a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
b(1): a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government

View attachment 772394

AKA 'representative democracy' AKA 'liberal democracies' AKA 'western democracies' AKA or just 'democracy'.

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument

Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.

www.theatlantic.com

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument
Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.


And it so states right on the Government's own website:

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/lesson-plans/Government_and_You_handouts.pdf

Democracy in the United States.

The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. Here, citizens vote for their government officials. These officials represent the citizens’ ideas and concerns in government. Voting is one way to participate in our democracy. Citizens can also contact their officials when they want to support or change a law. Voting in an election and contacting our elected officials are two ways that Americans can participate in their democracy.

Democrats, do not let Republicans bamboozle anyone on this point, America IS a democracy. Yes, there are times when it might be in doubt, but in principle, though our democracy is far from perfect, so with all of it's flaws, America is a Democracy.

Who do you think is going to read that crap?

 

[francoHFW]

You're an idiot.

No argument at all as always. that's what Gore did in 2000 and Samuel Tilden did in 1876. ignoramus

 

[BS Filter]

No argument at all as always. that's what Gore did in 2000 and Samuel Tilden did in 1876. ignoramus

Democrats didn't allow Republicans to win. Presidents are elected by the Electoral College, not the popular vote. You're an idiot.

 

[Rumpole]

Who do you think is going to read that crap?

Lastamender, I must say, your comment reeks of a peculiar brand of ignorance that only the most uninformed and disinterested individual could possibly possess. Who do I think is going to read that "crap"? Anyone with a shred of curiosity and a modicum of intelligence, that's who!

Do you not understand the significance of such an article? It is a clarion call for those who may be confused about the nature of our political system, who may not fully comprehend that a republic and democracy are not mutually exclusive terms. It is an article that sheds light on the fundamental underpinnings of our society, a society that millions have fought and died for.

And what of the 97 replies and 688 views? Clearly, there are those who are interested in the subject matter and have taken the time to engage with it. Perhaps you would do well to educate yourself on the topic at hand before dismissing it out of hand. As my dear wife Hilda (aka "she who must be obeyed") always says, "If you don't know, don't say."

Cheers,
Rumpole

 

[Lastamender]

Lastamender, I must say, your comment reeks of a peculiar brand of ignorance that only the most uninformed and disinterested individual could possibly possess. Who do I think is going to read that "crap"? Anyone with a shred of curiosity and a modicum of intelligence, that's who!

Do you not understand the significance of such an article? It is a clarion call for those who may be confused about the nature of our political system, who may not fully comprehend that a republic and democracy are not mutually exclusive terms. It is an article that sheds light on the fundamental underpinnings of our society, a society that millions have fought and died for.

And what of the 97 replies and 688 views? Clearly, there are those who are interested in the subject matter and have taken the time to engage with it. Perhaps you would do well to educate yourself on the topic at hand before dismissing it out of hand. As my dear wife Hilda (aka "she who must be obeyed") always says, "If you don't know, don't say."

Cheers,
Rumpole

Clarion this, blowhole.