Islam forbids

[Mr.Fitnah]

So you disagree with the Quran 2:217
They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar).

Say, "Fighting therein is a great (transgression)[] but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh,
to disbelieve in Him,
disbelieve in Him
disbelieve in Him
disbelieve in Him
to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah),
and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah[] is worse than killing.
And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islâmic Monotheism) if they can.

And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever."

http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe002.htm

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Which, as we have established, means "oppression," "injustice," or "denial of rights."


Once again, you are incorrect, because once again, you refer to an inaccurate translation with controversial and radical additions by its author. Zalimeen or zalimuun are, literally, "oppressors," "perpetrators of injustice," and "deniers of rights." If the passage had referred to disbelievers, kafiruun would have been used to describe them. Mere disbelief does not qualify as zulm because it does not intrinsically involve harming others. If a person's disbelief drives them to rob Muslims of their freedom of worship, however, they are oppressors.

So one would have to make a muslim aware of his disbelief , then he would be a denier of rightsm a perpetrator of injustice an oppressor .

No, one would have to practice one's disbelief in a way that clearly limited Muslims' freedom to worship. China's somewhat recent attempt to force mosques to close and prevent Muslims' access to religious facilities would be an example of "oppression." Declaring oneself a disbeliever in Islam and living a non-Islamic lifestyle does a Muslim no intrinsic harm and would simply be "disbelief."

Isnt the standard fitnah, and not limiting a muslims freedom to worship.

2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

 

[Kalam]

So you disagree with the Quran 2:217

No.

"...but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah),
and to drive out its inhabitants..."​

The transgression described in this passage involves doing each and every one of these things, hence the use of "and" rather than "or."

 

[Kalam]

So one would have to make a muslim aware of his disbelief , then he would be a denier of rightsm a perpetrator of injustice an oppressor .

No, one would have to practice one's disbelief in a way that clearly limited Muslims' freedom to worship. China's somewhat recent attempt to force mosques to close and prevent Muslims' access to religious facilities would be an example of "oppression." Declaring oneself a disbeliever in Islam and living a non-Islamic lifestyle does a Muslim no intrinsic harm and would simply be "disbelief."

Isnt the standard fitnah, and not limiting a muslims freedom to worship.

2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

I have already explained to you that your translation is dreadfully inaccurate. "Fitnah" is not a synonym for disbelief. Your translator's parenthetical additions are misleading and are a textbook example of the type of false interpretation described in 3:7.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

So you disagree with the Quran 2:217

No.

"...but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah),
and to drive out its inhabitants..."​

The transgression described in this passage involves doing each and every one of these things, hence the use of "and" rather than "or."

Are you a speaker of the Quraish dialec?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

37– MAKING WRONG INTERPRETATION OF THE QUR’AN

“Tafsir” means informing and discovering. It is the process of informing and explaining. “Tawil” means pulling back or escaping. “Tafsir “ comes to mean giving a meaning. “Tawil” is selection of one of the meaning among many meanings. It is not permissible (Jaiz) to make “Tafsir” according to one’s own opinion. “Tafsir” is performed according to the rules of transmission (“Riwayat” or “Nakl&#8221. On the other hand, “Tawil” is done according to one’s knowledge and capabilities. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, “A person who interprets the Qur’an according to his own opinion is in clear error even if he is right.”

ETHICS OF ISLAM

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Shirk is worse than Killing





Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:


﴿وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ﴾


(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:


﴿وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ﴾


(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I appreciat your efforts,
I think that will be all for today, we can investigate 5:32 and mischief in the future.

5:32. Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allâh by committing the major sins) in the land!

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Meaning of Mischief





In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,


﴿وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ قَالُواْ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ ﴾


(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,'' they say: "We are only peacemakers.'') "They are the hypocrites. As for,


﴿لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ﴾


("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,


﴿وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ﴾


(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah).'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said similarly.

 

[Liability]

You linked me to this thread. Why?

Kalam probably doesn't realize that he has failed to identify the person he seems to think he's addressing. Shhh.

Nobody tell him.

I assumed that most posters here were keen enough to deduce that my post was either addressed to the individual directly above it or to the OP. In this case, they happen to be the same person. Do you see where this is going, or do I need to spell things out for you?

That is often the case. Not always. In any event, it still looks like you are merely hearing voices and talking to them.

I already know where you are going. YOu have no special ability to point out anything except your own view of the many contradictory things said in your religion. And when you are challenged in any way by anybody, your resort to that one interpretation is quite telling.

Sadly for you, numerous Islamic scholars find many many areas of disagreement in interpretation throughout the Quar'an. It could be that your one view is the only view worthy of consideration. But it could also be that you are merely trying to evade the contradictions without having to deal with the consequences of acknowledging them.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

No, one would have to practice one's disbelief in a way that clearly limited Muslims' freedom to worship. China's somewhat recent attempt to force mosques to close and prevent Muslims' access to religious facilities would be an example of "oppression." Declaring oneself a disbeliever in Islam and living a non-Islamic lifestyle does a Muslim no intrinsic harm and would simply be "disbelief."

Isnt the standard fitnah, and not limiting a muslims freedom to worship.

2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

I have already explained to you that your translation is dreadfully inaccurate. "Fitnah" is not a synonym for disbelief. Your translator's parenthetical additions are misleading and are a textbook example of the type of false interpretation described in 3:7.

The translation by Muhammad Khan is distributed by “King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur’an—The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques.
Take it up with them they have had decades to correct the "error"had they been aware of it. Im sure they will be happy to hear from you.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

No, one would have to practice one's disbelief in a way that clearly limited Muslims' freedom to worship. China's somewhat recent attempt to force mosques to close and prevent Muslims' access to religious facilities would be an example of "oppression." Declaring oneself a disbeliever in Islam and living a non-Islamic lifestyle does a Muslim no intrinsic harm and would simply be "disbelief."

Isnt the standard fitnah, and not limiting a muslims freedom to worship.

2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

I have already explained to you that your translation is dreadfully inaccurate. "Fitnah" is not a synonym for disbelief. Your translator's parenthetical additions are misleading and are a textbook example of the type of false interpretation described in 3:7.

Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur’aan
I see the word fitnah repeated often in the Qur’aan in several soorahs and aayahs. Is there a difference in the meanings of this word, and what are its various meanings?

Praise be to Allaah.
Definition of fitnah:

1 – The word fitnah from a linguistic point of view:

Al-Azhari said: “The Arabic word fitnah includes meanings of testing and trial. The root is taken from the phrase fatantu al-fiddah wa’l-dhahab (I assayed (tested the quality of) the silver and gold), meaning I melted the metals to separate the bad from the good. Similarly, Allaah says in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meaning): ‘(It will be) a Day when they will be tried [yuftanoona] (punished, i.e. burnt) over the Fire!’ [al-Dhaariyaat 51:13], meaning, burning them with fire.” (Tahdheeb al-Lughah, 14/196).

Ibn Faaris said: “Fa-ta-na is a sound root which indicates testing or trial.” (Maqaayees al-Lughah, 4/472). This is the basic meaning of the word fitnah in Arabic.

Ibn al-Atheer said: “Fitnah: trial or test… The word is often used to describe tests in which something disliked is eliminated. Later it was also often used in the sense of sin, kufr (disbelief), fighting, burning, removing and diverting.” (al-Nihaayah, 3/410. Ibn Hajar said something similar in al-Fath, 13/3).

Ibn al-A’raabi summed up the meanings of fitnah when he said: “Fitnah means testing, fitnah means trial, fitnah means wealth, fitnah means children, fitnah means kufr, fitnah means differences of opinion among people, fitnah means burning with fire.” (Lisaan al-‘Arab by Ibn Manzoor).

2 – Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur’aan and Sunnah:
Islam Question and Answer - Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur’aan

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I have already explained to you that your translation is dreadfully inaccurate. "Fitnah" is not a synonym for disbelief. Your translator's parenthetical additions are misleading and are a textbook example of the type of false interpretation described in 3:7.

2 – Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

1- Testing and trial, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: ‘We believe, and will not be tested [la yuftanoon]” [al-‘Ankaboot 29:2]

i.e., that they will not be subjected to trial, as Ibn Jareer said.

2- Blocking the way and turning people away, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“but beware of them lest they turn you [yaftinooka] (O Muhammad) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you” [al-Maa’idah 5:49]

Al-Qurtubi said: this means blocking your way and turning you away.

3- Persecution, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Then, verily, your Lord for those who emigrated after they had been put to trials [futinoo] and thereafter strove hard and fought (for the Cause of Allaah) and were patient, verily, your Lord afterward is, Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful” [al-Nahl 16:110]

Put to trial means persecuted.

4- Shirk and kufr, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah)” [al-Baqarah 2:193]

Ibn Katheer said: this means shirk (worshipping others besides Allaah).

5- Falling into sin and hypocrisy, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“(The hypocrites) will call the believers: “Were we not with you?” The believers will reply: “Yes! But you led yourselves into temptations [fatantum anfusakum], you looked forward for our destruction; you doubted (in Faith) and you were deceived by false desires” [al-Hadeed 57:14]

Al-Baghawi said: i.e., you made yourselves fall into hypocrisy and you destroyed yourselves by means of sin and whims and desires.

6- Confusing truth with falsehood, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so [i.e. become allies, as one united block under one Khaleefah (a chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world) to make victorious Allaah’s religion of Islamic Monotheism], there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism) and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism)”[al-Anfaal 6:73]

What this means is that “unless believers are taken as close friends instead of disbelievers, even if they are relatives, there will be fitnah on earth, i.e., truth will be confused with falsehood.” This is how it is explained in Jaami’ al-Bayaan by Ibn Jareer.

7- Misguidance, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whomsoever Allaah wants to put in Al‑Fitnah (error, because of his rejecting of Faith), you can do nothing for him against Allaah” [al-Maa'idah 5:41]

The meaning of fitnah here is misguidance. Al-Bahr al-Muheet by Abu Hayaan, 4/262.

8- Killing and taking prisoners, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“if you fear that the disbelievers may put you in trial [yaftinakum] (attack you)”

[al-Nisa’ 4:101]

This refers to the kaafirs attacking the Muslims whilst they are praying and prostrating, in order to kill them or take them prisoner, as stated by Ibn Jareer.

9- Difference among people and lack of agreement, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“and they would have hurried about in your midst (spreading corruption) and sowing sedition among you [yabghoonakum al-fitnah]” [al-Tawbah 9:47]

i.e., they would have stirred up differences amongst you, as it says in al-Kashshaaf, 2/277.

10-Insanity, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Which of you is afflicted with madness (maftoon)” [al-Qalam 68:6] Here it means madness.

11-Burning with fire, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, those who put into trial [fatanoo] the believing men and believing women (by torturing them and burning them)”[al-Burooj 85:10]

Ibn Hajar said: the meaning may be understood from the context. (al-Fath 11/176)

Note:

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: With regard to the “fitnah” which Allaah attributes to Himself or which His Messenger attributes to Him, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning), ‘Thus We have tried [fatannaa] some of them with others’ [al-An’aam 6:53] and the words of Moosa, ‘It is only Your trial [fitnatuka] by which You lead astray whom You will’ [al-A’raaf 7:155 – interpretation of the meaning], that carries a different meaning, which is a test or trial from Allaah to His slaves by means of good things and bad, blessings and calamities. This is one thing; the fitnah of the mushrikeen is another thing; the fitnah or trial of the believer by means of his wealth, children and neighbour is another thing; the fitnah (tribulation, differences) that happen amongst the Muslims, like the fitnah that happened between the supporters of ‘Ali and Mu’awiyah, and between him and the people of the camel, and between Muslims when they fight one another or boycott one another, is another thing. (Zaad al-Ma’aad, vol. 3, p. 170).

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

 

[Kalam]

So you disagree with the Quran 2:217

No.

"...but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah),
and to drive out its inhabitants..."​

The transgression described in this passage involves doing each and every one of these things, hence the use of "and" rather than "or."

Are you a speaker of the Quraish dialec?

I don't need to to know that "and" = و and "or" = أو.

Are you at all familiar with classical Arabic, the language of the Qur'an?

 

[Kalam]

Meaning of Mischief





In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,

Meaningless.

 

[Kalam]

I already know where you are going. YOu have no special ability to point out anything except your own view of the many contradictory things said in your religion.

When my opponents are reduced to copying and pasting the unsubstantiated opinions of others, I take it as a sign that my arguments are at least somewhat effective. Individuals like Fitnah make the mistake of assuming that I'm unfamiliar with my own religion and that I place weight on the opinions of two-bit scholars and distorters of the Qur'an.

And when you are challenged in any way by anybody, your resort to that one interpretation is quite telling.

Why would I resort to an interpretation besides my own?

Sadly for you, numerous Islamic scholars find many many areas of disagreement in interpretation throughout the Quar'an.

Again, my beliefs are based on the words of the Qur'an. If a scholar happens to agree with me, great, but I wouldn't care if every single one of them thought differently.

It could be that your one view is the only view worthy of consideration. But it could also be that you are merely trying to evade the contradictions without having to deal with the consequences of acknowledging them.

If I thought that I was incorrect regarding abrogation, I would not be a Muslim.

 

[Kalam]

The translation by Muhammad Khan is distributed by “King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur’an—The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques.

Which is precisely why it's inaccurate: it reflects the opinions of radical Wahhabi heretics.

The best and most accurate translations are probably Pickthall's and, of course, Maulana Muhammad Ali's. Perhaps reading one of their works will cure your King Fahd Complex.

Take it up with them they have had decades to correct the "error"had they been aware of it. Im sure they will be happy to hear from you.

So has every other translator, most of whom seem to be at odds with the Wahhabis.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

No.

"...but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah),
and to drive out its inhabitants..."​

The transgression described in this passage involves doing each and every one of these things, hence the use of "and" rather than "or."

Are you a speaker of the Quraish dialec?

I don't need to to know that "and" = و and "or" = أو.

Are you at all familiar with classical Arabic, the language of the Qur'an?

No,I dont need to be to read the documents, if the custodian of the Two Holy Mosques wished the meaning to be something other than what they print they have had ample opportunity to make the correction.
If you have a scholarly source that backs up your position link to it.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The translation by Muhammad Khan is distributed by “King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur’an—The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques.

Which is precisely why it's inaccurate: it reflects the opinions of radical Wahhabi heretics.

The best and most accurate translations are probably Pickthall's and, of course, Maulana Muhammad Ali's. Perhaps reading one of their works will cure your King Fahd Complex.

Take it up with them they have had decades to correct the "error"had they been aware of it. Im sure they will be happy to hear from you.

So has every other translator, most of whom seem to be at odds with the Wahhabis.

I find the Nobel Quran translation to be the most accurate as it does not white wash or impart bias by trying to translate into english words that cannot be directly translated .
Islam is radical, their is nothing unislamic about wahhabi thought

 

[Kalam]

I find the Nobel Quran translation to be the most accurate as it does not white wash or impart bias by trying to translate into english words that cannot be directly translated .
Islam is radical, their is nothing unislamic about wahhabi thought

You like it because it conveniently reinforces your preconceived notions of Islam being a radical religion. Wahhabism is un-Islamic through and through, but what's the point of attempting to demonstrate that to you when you're so persistent in clinging to your illogical prejudice? You don't know if your favored translation is accurate and you don't care. It's "the best" because it allows you to rationalize your bigotry.