Zone1 My departure from Catholicism (very long OP)

[Meriweather]

Why do you believe that I am insincere?

"Insincere" may be too harsh. Take a second look at your OP. Everywhere you paste what non-Catholics claim the Church is doing wrong. For everyone of these, the Catholic Church has a position, and this position dates back to Apostolic times. The reason Catholic priests learn Latin is so they can read scripture in a Biblical language instead of the modern language of our times.

For some reason, you want the Catholic Church to be wrong. What is that reason?

 

[K9Buck]

K9Buck, you have embraced the folly of Protestantism. You believe that you can read the Book and decide for yourself what it means. In effect, you say, "No, I'm smarter than your armies of theologians and hundreds of years of study."

I'm not a "protestant"; I'm a follower of Jesus and a member of his church. You follow a catechism and a worldly institution that is loved and adored by this wicked world.

And where do you get the belief that God's word is not able to be understood by Godly people?

 

[K9Buck]

Proverbs 18:2
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

 

[K9Buck]

 

[K9Buck]

As I said earlier, I usually stick to the "Great Commandment" when I'm with other Christians. Once you delve into doctrines, people's feelings get hurt, they get angry, and then they lash out.

I was Catholic for the first 50 years of my life. My late father, who was a very Godly man, was a Catholic cultist. He passed away just before I delved into the Bible and learned the truth. I probably wouldn't have told him. It only would have upset him. Besides, it's not a salvational issue. I don't hold the belief that Catholics or anybody else is automatically going to Hell.

I posted my reasons, which nobody has apparently read to completion, and others have reacted with emotional hostility. That's par for the course.

 

[Meriweather]

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother[a] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults[b] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell[c] of fire.

Here is a perfect example of using the modern English word. Jesus used the word 'raca' (rhaka). This word truly hard to translate because to get its meaning across, one depends on the sound that is made when it is said. Our definition/use of the word 'fool' is far from what Jesus was saying.

 

[K9Buck]

Here is a perfect example of using the modern English word. Jesus used the word 'raca' (rhaka). This word truly hard to translate because to get its meaning across, one depends on the sound that is made when it is said. Our definition/use of the word 'fool' is far from what Jesus was saying.

You have a point but I believe that Jesus's point is not to be a jerk to others.

Matthew 5:22 CLNT
22 Yet I am saying to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judging. Yet whoever may be saying to his brother, 'Raka!' shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. Yet whoever may be saying, 'Stupid!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire.

 

[Meriweather]

Not true.

Matthew 23:9
9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

Once again...you miss the etymology of the Biblical language. In Jesus' day, there were many sects of Judaism and each had its "father" or founder. In more modern times, "Lutherans" would be more in line of what Jesus was speaking against. In other words, religion/faith is founded by God not by a founder/father.

Jews referred to Abraham as Father Abraham, and Jesus was noting we only have on founder/Father of faith. Throughout apostolic times people had biological fathers and spiritual fathers, with spiritual fathers leading them in The Way that Jesus walked. This way included Baptism, Confession/Forgiveness, the Last Supper, Apostleship, Healing, and his teaching on marriage. These became the sacred/holy steps in The Way--the sacredness that became known as "Sacraments." Jesus' Way. Catholics proclaim God as Father and God as our ultimate Teacher (Rabbi).

 

[K9Buck]

Once again...you miss the etymology of the Biblical language. In Jesus' day, there were many sects of Judaism and each had its "father" or founder. In more modern times, "Lutherans" would be more in line of what Jesus was speaking against. In other words, religion/faith is founded by God not by a founder/father.

Jews referred to Abraham as Father Abraham, and Jesus was noting we only have on founder/Father of faith. Throughout apostolic times people had biological fathers and spiritual fathers, with spiritual fathers leading them in The Way that Jesus walked. This way included Baptism, Confession/Forgiveness, the Last Supper, Apostleship, Healing, and his teaching on marriage. These became the sacred/holy steps in The Way--the sacredness that became known as "Sacraments." Jesus' Way. Catholics proclaim God as Father and God as our ultimate Teacher (Rabbi).

Are you saying that Jesus is ok with his followers exalting priests and bishops by calling them "father"? Can you cite scripture to back your assertion?

 

[K9Buck]

Jews referred to Abraham as Father Abraham

Verse(s)?

 

[Meriweather]

but I believe that Jesus's point is not to be a jerk to others.

Matthew 5:22 CLNT
22 Yet I am saying to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judging. Yet whoever may be saying to his brother, 'Raka!' shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. Yet whoever may be saying, 'Stupid!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire.

God (and therefore Jesus) cares about the broken human spirit. "Rhaka" was uttered with a heartfelt feeling of contempt and even hatred for another human being--the kind that burns inside. "Gehenna" was the Jerusalem city dump where the fire never went out. Hatred burns, and it never goes out. Jesus not only cared about the person whom the word was directed to, but the soul of the person who was holding so much hatred and contempt of another.

 

[K9Buck]

God (and therefore Jesus) cares about the broken human spirit. "Rhaka" was uttered with a heartfelt feeling of contempt and even hatred for another human being--the kind that burns inside. "Gehenna" was the Jerusalem city dump where the fire never went out. Hatred burns, and it never goes out. Jesus not only cared about the person whom the word was directed to, but the soul of the person who was holding so much hatred and contempt of another.

I like your response but just to clarify, do you believe that Jesus is ok with one person calling another a "Fool!"?

 

[Meriweather]

Are you saying that Jesus is ok with his followers exalting priests and bishops by calling them "father"? Can you cite scripture to back your assertion?

What I am saying is the etymology of the time was different. In the modern English we would call no one father, teacher, or even sir--and that is not what Jesus meant. Keep in mind Biblical languages had very few words compared to our modern English. Almost every word did double duty.

Jesus was saying that ultimately, God is our Father, our Teacher, our Hero. Don't get so enamored with a rabbi/priest, teacher, boss that this is the highest you look when you come to living your life. Fathers, priests, rabbis, teachers, bosses are well and good, but remember don't stop there, and certainly don't ignore them. Simply look even higher and remember who is the true Father of truth and your own true Father, Teacher, Master.

Grin. Going back to your earlier post, if we can't use titles, we would have to learn to respectfully address our priests, rabbis, teachers, bosses as, "Fool." Remember, Jesus said not to address someone as "Master" which means we can't use the word "Mister, Missus, Miss" either, because they are all derivative of Master.


ETA: Priests, Bishops, Popes (and Misters) can certainly be addressed by their title without exalting them. Respect and exaltation or two very different things.

 

[Meriweather]

I like your response but just to clarify, do you believe that Jesus is ok with one person calling another a "Fool!"?

In today's English, would you prefer being called a fool or a hypocrite? For me, the greater hurt would be if someone thought I was a hypocrite. I was once called a fool for running into the middle of a group of teens who were stoning a dog. Possibly that was foolish, but I did get the dog away from them.

But...What would Jesus have us do? I believe he would rather we address people respectfully, but truthfully as well. Instead of calling someone a fool, it might be better to call the actions or words foolish. However, like Jesus, be able to back up why the actions/words might be foolish.

Some might have said Jesus was foolish to go to the Cross rather than hightailing it out of Jerusalem.

 

[K9Buck]

What I am saying is the etymology of the time was different. In the modern English we would call no one father, teacher, or even sir--and that is not what Jesus meant. Keep in mind Biblical languages had very few words compared to our modern English. Almost every word did double duty.

Jesus was saying that ultimately, God is our Father, our Teacher, our Hero. Don't get so enamored with a rabbi/priest, teacher, boss that this is the highest you look when you come to living your life. Fathers, priests, rabbis, teachers, bosses are well and good, but remember don't stop there, and certainly don't ignore them. Simply look even higher and remember who is the true Father of truth and your own true Father, Teacher, Master.

Grin. Going back to your earlier post, if we can't use titles, we would have to learn to respectfully address our priests, rabbis, teachers, bosses as, "Fool." Remember, Jesus said not to address someone as "Master" which means we can't use the word "Mister, Missus, Miss" either, because they are all derivative of Master.


ETA: Priests, Bishops, Popes (and Misters) can certainly be addressed by their title without exalting them. Respect and exaltation or two very different things.

Jesus commanded us NOT to exalt other men by calling them "father" because all praise, glory, and exaltation belongs ONLY to God the Father. In the chapter referenced, Jesus had just finished lambasting the esteemed religious leaders of Jerusalem. The Catholic Church could have abided by Jesus's commandment by referring to its priests as "brother", just as they refer to nuns as "sister".

In summary, the Catholic Church contradicts Jesus's commandment .

 

[DGS49]

Awwwww...did I touch a nerve?

 

[K9Buck]

In today's English, would you prefer being called a fool or a hypocrite? For me, the greater hurt would be if someone thought I was a hypocrite. I was once called a fool for running into the middle of a group of teens who were stoning a dog. Possibly that was foolish, but I did get the dog away from them.

But...What would Jesus have us do? I believe he would rather we address people respectfully, but truthfully as well. Instead of calling someone a fool, it might be better to call the actions or words foolish. However, like Jesus, be able to back up why the actions/words might be foolish.

Some might have said Jesus was foolish to go to the Cross rather than hightailing it out of Jerusalem.

Essentially, I believe, Jesus was telling us not to call our brothers fools, stupid, moronic, etc.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus commanded us NOT to exalt other men by calling them "father" because all praise, glory, and exaltation belongs ONLY to God the Father. In the chapter referenced, Jesus had just finished lambasting the esteemed religious leaders of Jerusalem. The Catholic Church could have abided by Jesus's commandment by referring to its priests as "brother", just as they refer to nuns as "sister".

In summary, the Catholic Church contradicts Jesus's commandment .

Then you should also be arguing we are not to call anyone Mister (as it is a form of Master). You might also keep in mind, Jesus probably said, "Call no man Ab, Abi, Abba." He wouldn't have known the word "Father". Is any priest, bishop, or pope called Abba?

 

[Meriweather]

Essentially, I believe, Jesus was telling us not to call our brothers fools, stupid, moronic, etc.

What is in the heart comes forth. The essential teaching was to love and care for one another, not just outwardly, but inwardly.

 

[K9Buck]

What is in the heart comes forth. The essential teaching was to love and care for one another, not just outwardly, but inwardly.

As you are doing now, right?