Zone1 My departure from Catholicism (very long OP)

[K9Buck]

Awwwww...did I touch a nerve?

If you want to argue theology I suggest you first read the Bible.

 

[Meriweather]

Then respond to my argument and the scriptures that I shared with your own arguments and supporting scriptures.

I have responded taking into account all of scripture. As I said in another post,. I don't proof-text (better known as cherry picking). The Bible is intended as a whole.

 

[K9Buck]

I have responded taking into account all of scripture. As I said in another post,. I don't proof-text (better known as cherry picking). The Bible is intended as a whole.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm always asking myself what I don't know and what I am misunderstanding. I stick to the scriptures and oftentimes just have to acknowledge that I don't know.

The scriptures are very helpful and I believe that the Holy Spirit inspired them and that God protects the Bible because after all the centuries of those who tried to ban it, keep it from the people, destroy it, it remains the No. 1 best seller in the world.

But the Bible isn't all of it. The Gospel According to John ends with: "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

Well that is a bit of hyperbole of course but the meaning is clear. The Bible as important and precious and instructive as it is cannot contain everything there is to know. There are huge gaps in the history in the Old and New Testaments.

But Jesus told his Disciples that he must go away so that the Comforter (Holy Spirit) could come and lead you into all truth. I believe the Holy Spirit is with us now teaching, nudging, leading those who make themselves open to that guidance.

And I believe humankind all put together still knows only a tiny fraction of all there is to know.

 

[Foxfyre]

I have responded taking into account all of scripture. As I said in another post,. I don't proof-text (better known as cherry picking). The Bible is intended as a whole.

All of scripture directs us to one conclusion: be kind, loving, helpful, non judgmental to one another.

 

[Meriweather]

All of scripture directs us to one conclusion: be kind, loving, helpful, non judgmental to one another.

Not to mention, God working in our midst...

 

[toobfreak]

I believe that the very early church in Rome was legitimate. I believe that the Holy Spirit guided them to compile the scriptures into a Bible. At some point thereafter, however, I believe they began preaching doctrines that were not only absent from the scriptures but, in many cases, actually contradict those scriptures.

I can live with that. First came the scripture and with that the good intentions to base society on scripture, thus men began writing laws based on human interpretation of scripture and laws meant to guide and enforce a society adhering to the scripture, problem is that as time went on, the laws because more strict and punitive in an effort to force people and soon, the punitive laws became more important that the scripture itself they were originally meant to support, eventually losing sight of the meaning of the very things they were meant to enhance, and being that these were the dark ages of myth and superstition, it all grew into an institution of atrocities and barbarism toward man justified by the need to protect and defend the Holy Word.

Who knows, perhaps it was necessary or unavoidable or even did good but the time has long passed for a theocratic governance as can be seen by those still clinging to existence in the Middle East, because without free will to participate, these become institutions of fear, compliance and punishment instead of institutions of love, enlightenment and worship.

 

[Foxfyre]

Not to mention, God working in our midst...

That too. I am just hoping for all Christians to love God and one another. The differences in what we believe of scripture or how to 'do church' are unimportant compared to that.

 

[Meriweather]

That too. I am just hoping for all Christians to love God and one another. The differences in what we believe of scripture or how to 'do church' are unimportant compared to that.

Agree. Even people in the same Church do it differently. As a child that was clearly obvious. When I started school it was confirmed. The nuns pointed out times and issues great Saints disagreed with one another. We had ministers and rabbis speak to this as well. The sole purpose of any religion is to assist one in growing closer to God.

 

[Libby von H]

I know many ex-Catholic and ex-Protestants that are very godly people based on their words, demeanor, behavior, the love the emanates from them. I know those who rejected the Catholicism and/or Protestantism of their youth who do not seem to be godly at all.

I am very careful not to presume I am given any authority to judge their hearts. The same goes for those who identify with the Catholic Church and Protestant Church, even some who seem to be quite active in their various congregations. There are good and bad. Sheep and goats graze in the same pasture.

I also know some Jewish people and others who are godly people based on their words, demeanor, behavior, their ability to love and care about others.

In my opinion, it is not the religious group we identify with that makes us godly but our relationship with the living God.

Okay but saying " our relationship with the living God" exempts no one from loving God with your whole mind and the oddities in many people's faith is just the lack of using their God-given mind. Let us not enshrine laziness.
St Augustine said Ama Valde Intellectum, Love (your gift of ) Intelligence GREATLY

 

[K9Buck]

I can live with that. First came the scripture and with that the good intentions to base society on scripture, thus men began writing laws based on human interpretation of scripture and laws meant to guide and enforce a society adhering to the scripture, problem is that as time went on, the laws because more strict and punitive in an effort to force people and soon, the punitive laws became more important that the scripture itself they were originally meant to support, eventually losing sight of the meaning of the very things they were meant to enhance, and being that these were the dark ages of myth and superstition, it all grew into an institution of atrocities and barbarism toward man justified by the need to protect and defend the Holy Word.

Who knows, perhaps it was necessary or unavoidable or even did good but the time has long passed for a theocratic governance as can be seen by those still clinging to existence in the Middle East, because without free will to participate, these become institutions of fear, compliance and punishment instead of institutions of love, enlightenment and worship.

I believe that God allows people to be lost from him, for a while. I'll try to create a thread on that later.

 

[K9Buck]

St Augustine said...

At the risk of seeming unkind, why quote him when you could instead quote scripture?

 

[Foxfyre]

I can live with that. First came the scripture and with that the good intentions to base society on scripture, thus men began writing laws based on human interpretation of scripture and laws meant to guide and enforce a society adhering to the scripture, problem is that as time went on, the laws because more strict and punitive in an effort to force people and soon, the punitive laws became more important that the scripture itself they were originally meant to support, eventually losing sight of the meaning of the very things they were meant to enhance, and being that these were the dark ages of myth and superstition, it all grew into an institution of atrocities and barbarism toward man justified by the need to protect and defend the Holy Word.

Who knows, perhaps it was necessary or unavoidable or even did good but the time has long passed for a theocratic governance as can be seen by those still clinging to existence in the Middle East, because without free will to participate, these become institutions of fear, compliance and punishment instead of institutions of love, enlightenment and worship.

Brilliant observation. Even Christianity, when made the 'law of the land' as has happened over human history, becomes a corrupting and ungodly influence because such theocracies invariably require adherence to rules and doctrine authorized by the government and love and obedience to God gets lost in that and much injustice invariably results.

At the same time I strongly believe that the government that demands that people of faith not exercise or be allowed to openly express their faith in public, that requires religion symbols and markers and art and traditions and prayer be removed from the public sphere, are unwittingly (I hope) promoting Satanic concepts.

 

[toobfreak]

I believe that God allows people to be lost from him, for a while. I'll try to create a thread on that later.

The problem is that while scripture comes from God which makes it perfect and infallible, too many people dared think they could interpret and use it to create a theocratic institution of governance based on men's laws, and man is imperfect and very fallible. But their arrogance allowed them to combine the two believing that they were acting in the name of God instead of just acting in the name of men and themselves and soon, they rationalized evil in the name of God to justify and protect their own power.

In order for people to find God they must be free to lose him because people are imperfect, and in a very real sense, the world is a world of people lost from God and life is a continuous ladder upon which people are continually climbing up toward God or falling from him, either way, it is all part of the natural cycle which each person must be free to travel in their own way according to their own needs and timeline.

 

[K9Buck]

too many people dared think they could interpret and use it to create a theocratic institution of governance based on men's laws,

True. It's noteworthy that neither Jesus nor the apostles engaged in political discussion, let alone activism.

 

[toobfreak]

Brilliant observation. Even Christianity, when made the 'law of the land' as has happened over human history, becomes a corrupting and ungodly influence because such theocracies invariably require adherence to rules and doctrine authorized by the government and love and obedience to God gets lost in that and much injustice invariably results.

At the same time I strongly believe that the government that demands that people of faith not exercise or be allowed to openly express their faith in public, that requires religion symbols and markers and art and traditions and prayer be removed from the public sphere, are unwittingly (I hope) promoting Satanic concepts.

Once the Church had convinced themselves that they were indeed acting on behalf of God's wishes instead of their own, it because possible to justify most anything on behalf of God, from gruesome torture and imprisonment, to savage loss of freedom, to war.

Not entirely dislike how democrats now justify weaponization of government, stolen elections, oppression of free speech, corrupting education, all in the name of "saving" democracy," all the while tearing it to pieces. They literally believe they are /saving/ freedom of choice by taking it away.

 

[K9Buck]

I suspect that God's Kingdom will have very little governments because perfect people are unlikely to need much governance. That sounds like Hell for a leftist.

 

[Foxfyre]

Okay but saying " our relationship with the living God" exempts no one from loving God with your whole mind and the oddities in many people's faith is just the lack of using their God-given mind. Let us not enshrine laziness.
St Augustine said Ama Valde Intellectum, Love (your gift of ) Intelligence GREATLY

One man's 'laziness' can be another man's much needed vacation.

But who am I to say what your relationship with God is? Jesus himself refused to adhere to religious rules that made no sense to him and he didn't criticize those who did things differently than he did. And he admonished us all to judge not lest we be judged also, i.e. we are to judge the behavior and affect of others but judgment of one's heart and faith is God's prerogative, not ours.

Jesus, Peter, the Apostle Paul et al were all very big on utilizing common sense, i.e. effectively using the intelligence, instincts, insights God gives us. And we are also to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I once had a coworker who was strongly conflicted and said at one time she didn't go to church because the people there were so 'unChristian' and at another time said she didn't go because she 'wasn't good enough.' I suspected--I hope it was the leading of the Spirit--that she was just trying to find a valid excuse not to go to church and suggested we pick her up to worship with us the next Sunday. It took. She became an active and beneficial member, teacher, servant up until her death a few years ago.

 

[1miseryindex]

It is NOT "the church".

As I wrote in my OP, the CC is a worldly institution that is loved and adored by this evil, wicked, world.

Disagree?

The CC is the ONLY faith system in this world that is recognized by this world as being its own, sovereign, nation. Yep, the ONLY one! The CC has diplomatic emissaries in capitols throughout the world. World leaders line up to get their picture taken with the Pope.

Yes, the CC is loved by the world because it is "of the world". It is NOT Jesus's church in this world.

John 15:19
19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

You don't read Church history much, apparently. The Catholic Church was one way some 65 years ago and a totally different way NOW.

Until you understand what happened, you will never understand why things are the way they are in the RCC. Therefore, you are ignorant. I have studied a lot of modern Church history (a lot compared to most Catholics, it seems). You are correct to see a lot of evil in the Church today, but you are INCORRECT to be blind to what went before. It wasn't perfect before either, and yet, I dare you to name me ONE non-Catholic "church" that is perfect, has perfect people in it only. What a joke. Human beings are rotten to the core. Look what Jesus had to go through to save us! That shows you how rotten humans are. And btw, we all have to go through what Jesus went through in order to get to Heaven. Why would Jesus have to go through such a horrible, horrible thing like the Cross, and we His followers would.. what? Get an easy life? No, it is not at all easy adjusting to the ways of Christ. The world, as you know, hates true Christians (Catholics).

No Church (or "church" so called) is more hated than the RCC.

 

[1miseryindex]

Jesus is the head of the "one true church" and it definitely exists. It's just extraordinarily unlikely that any living human being knows all that it entails.

To avoid division when I am among other Christians, I stick to the Great Commandment. However, sometimes heretics spread egregiously false teachings that must be confronted.

Your saying that the RCC is not the One Church is heresy.

So it might be good 4 u to correct your own heresy b4 confronting that of others.