The Confederate Flag

[Nosmo King]

What do we expect from a flag? What are its duties?

A flag can rally troops on the field of battle. A flag can serve as a means of identity in foreign lands (think about the opening ceremonies at the Olympic Games). A flag can be a tangible means of showing patriotism. A flag can inspire.

The Confederate flag serves none of these purposes. It only divides along racial and class lines. It should not be flown atop any state house due to its unique capacity to divide. It was originally used as a banner for the most despicable cause ever fought for in this hemisphere.

It's an historical relic, but it serves none of the noble purposes a flag should.

 

[Boss]

Why not? People dont associate the American flag with the KKK.

I don't associate the Confederate flag with the KKK. Only ignorant people do that.

Thats because you are ignorant. KKK and other hate groups use that flag all the time.

They also use the American flag. In fact, your own link says this is an edict mandated by the Grand Wizard himself. No flag shall fly above the American flag.

 

[Boss]

What do we expect from a flag? What are its duties?

A flag can rally troops on the field of battle. A flag can serve as a means of identity in foreign lands (think about the opening ceremonies at the Olympic Games). A flag can be a tangible means of showing patriotism. A flag can inspire.

The Confederate flag serves none of these purposes. It only divides along racial and class lines. It should not be flown atop any state house due to its unique capacity to divide. It was originally used as a banner for the most despicable cause ever fought for in this hemisphere.

It's an historical relic, but it serves none of the noble purposes a flag should.

Sorry, but I have ancestors who fought and died under that flag. They were men of honor who didn't own slaves or believe in slavery. They were fighting for their homeland. You can pervert history all you like, you can ignorantly believe whatever you please about the Civil War, but you will not take the honor away from my ancestors. I refuse to allow that for the sake of political correctness run amok.

 

[Boss]

The American flag has never been their official flag. It was used to pretend they were patriots. here is a link to the various flags they have used as official flags. i felt dirty just copying the link

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kkklan.com%2Ftrueflag.htm&ei=yXfaU4-kFcv5oAT2woL4Cg&usg=AFQjCNEAj_Xet5B_F7prRda3bP2beMx_VA&sig2=zTIgVqQ2kUZDTgsM1_UbXQ

From your link:

Now there remains one more TRUE flag of the Ku Klux Klan. We've covered the flag of the first Klan and the flag of the modern Klans, but what about the flag of the largest Klan? The great revival Klan of 1915-1944, which had the largest Klan membership, power, and influence ever, what was their True Klan flag? Imperial Wizard Simmons made it plain. He openly declared that there was but one official flag of the Ku Klux Klan and that was the Stars and Stripes. He made it Klan law that NO flag at any Klan function was to fly above it and NO flag was to fly equal to it. All flags would fly beneath the flag of the United States!

That fits with what we have been telling you. So they admit they later tried to adopt it as their flag? One guy making a declaration doesnt change what the actuality was.

The Imperial Wizard of the largest Klan organization to ever exist is hardly just "some guy."

Still not seeing the Confederate flag posted on your link of official Klan flags, by the way.

 

[Nosmo King]

What do we expect from a flag? What are its duties?

A flag can rally troops on the field of battle. A flag can serve as a means of identity in foreign lands (think about the opening ceremonies at the Olympic Games). A flag can be a tangible means of showing patriotism. A flag can inspire.

The Confederate flag serves none of these purposes. It only divides along racial and class lines. It should not be flown atop any state house due to its unique capacity to divide. It was originally used as a banner for the most despicable cause ever fought for in this hemisphere.

It's an historical relic, but it serves none of the noble purposes a flag should.

Sorry, but I have ancestors who fought and died under that flag. They were men of honor who didn't own slaves or believe in slavery. They were fighting for their homeland. You can pervert history all you like, you can ignorantly believe whatever you please about the Civil War, but you will not take the honor away from my ancestors. I refuse to allow that for the sake of political correctness run amok.

Your ancestors fought not for their homeland but against the government and Constitution of the United States of America, making them traitors. The cause of that war was to determine if human beings could be bought, sold, abused and enslaved. Where's the nobility in all that?

 

[natstew]

Actually, a larger percentage of Blacks owned slaves than Whites.

Here's some facts you won't learn in Public School "History Books".

http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm

 

[Asclepias]

I don't associate the Confederate flag with the KKK. Only ignorant people do that.

Thats because you are ignorant. KKK and other hate groups use that flag all the time.

They also use the American flag. In fact, your own link says this is an edict mandated by the Grand Wizard himself. No flag shall fly above the American flag.

They use the American flag to show patriotism. I have no issue with that. I do have an issue with any flag they use to promote terrorism.

 

[Asclepias]

From your link:

Now there remains one more TRUE flag of the Ku Klux Klan. We've covered the flag of the first Klan and the flag of the modern Klans, but what about the flag of the largest Klan? The great revival Klan of 1915-1944, which had the largest Klan membership, power, and influence ever, what was their True Klan flag? Imperial Wizard Simmons made it plain. He openly declared that there was but one official flag of the Ku Klux Klan and that was the Stars and Stripes. He made it Klan law that NO flag at any Klan function was to fly above it and NO flag was to fly equal to it. All flags would fly beneath the flag of the United States!

That fits with what we have been telling you. So they admit they later tried to adopt it as their flag? One guy making a declaration doesnt change what the actuality was.

The Imperial Wizard of the largest Klan organization to ever exist is hardly just "some guy."

Still not seeing the Confederate flag posted on your link of official Klan flags, by the way.

He is just some guy. The size of his organization has nothing to do with their adoption of the US flag to show patriotism to disguise their motives.

You must not be looking hard. I saw a couple before I got off the site.

 

[natstew]

Here, I'll make it easy for you. This includes the story of the Ellisons, (A Black slave owning family):

NOTE: If you don't read this, please don't bother to post a critique. I have two Great Grandfathers who served in the 16th Maine Infantry Regiment and two Great Grandfathers who served in the Fifth Florida Infantry Regiment, only one was of a slave owning family - Robert May of the May Family of Jefferson County Florida.

Father's side:
Robert May - Fifth Florida Infantry
William J. Stewart - Fifth Florida Infantry

Mothers side:
Thomas Dorset - 16th Maine Infantry
Sylvanus Chick - 16th Main Infantry


In an 1856 letter to his wife Mary Custis Lee, Robert E. Lee called slavery "a moral and political evil." Yet he concluded that black slaves were immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially and physically.

The fact is large numbers of free Negroes owned black slaves; in fact, in numbers disproportionate to their representation in society at large. In 1860 only a small minority of whites owned slaves. According to the U.S. census report for that last year before the Civil War, there were nearly 27 million whites in the country. Some eight million of them lived in the slaveholding states.

The census also determined that there were fewer than 385,000 individuals who owned slaves (1). Even if all slaveholders had been white, that would amount to only 1.4 percent of whites in the country (or 4.8 percent of southern whites owning one or more slaves).

In the rare instances when the ownership of slaves by free Negroes is acknowledged in the history books, justification centers on the claim that black slave masters were simply individuals who purchased the freedom of a spouse or child from a white slaveholder and had been unable to legally manumit them. Although this did indeed happen at times, it is a misrepresentation of the majority of instances, one which is debunked by records of the period on blacks who owned slaves. These include individuals such as Justus Angel and Mistress L. Horry, of Colleton District, South Carolina, who each owned 84 slaves in 1830. In fact, in 1830 a fourth of the free Negro slave masters in South Carolina owned 10 or more slaves; eight owning 30 or more (2).

According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city.

To return to the census figures quoted above, this 28 percent is certainly impressive when compared to less than 1.4 percent of all American whites and less than 4.8 percent of southern whites. The statistics show that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters.

The majority of slaveholders, white and black, owned only one to five slaves. More often than not, and contrary to a century and a half of bullwhips-on-tortured-backs propaganda, black and white masters worked and ate alongside their charges; be it in house, field or workshop. The few individuals who owned 50 or more slaves were confined to the top one percent, and have been defined as slave magnates.

In 1860 there were at least six Negroes in Louisiana who owned 65 or more slaves The largest number, 152 slaves, were owned by the widow C. Richards and her son P.C. Richards, who owned a large sugar cane plantation. Another Negro slave magnate in Louisiana, with over 100 slaves, was Antoine Dubuclet, a sugar planter whose estate was valued at (in 1860 dollars) $264,000 (3). That year, the mean wealth of southern white men was $3,978 (4).

In Charleston, South Carolina in 1860 125 free Negroes owned slaves; six of them owning 10 or more. Of the $1.5 million in taxable property owned by free Negroes in Charleston, more than $300,000 represented slave holdings (5). In North Carolina 69 free Negroes were slave owners (6).

In 1860 William Ellison was South Carolina's largest Negro slaveowner. In Black Masters. A Free Family of Color in the Old South, authors Michael P. Johnson and James L. Roak write a sympathetic account of Ellison's life. From Ellison's birth as a slave to his death at 71, the authors attempt to provide justification, based on their own speculation, as to why a former slave would become a magnate slave master.

At birth he was given the name April. A common practice among slaves of the period was to name a child after the day or month of his or her birth. Between 1800 and 1802 April was purchased by a white slave-owner named William Ellison. Apprenticed at 12, he was taught the trades of carpentry, blacksmithing and machining, as well as how to read, write, cipher and do basic bookkeeping.

On June 8, 1816, William Ellison appeared before a magistrate (with five local freeholders as supporting witnesses) to gain permission to free April, now 26 years of age. In 1800 the South Carolina legislature had set out in detail the procedures for manumission. To end the practice of freeing unruly slaves of "bad or depraved" character and those who "from age or infirmity" were incapacitated, the state required that an owner testify under oath to the good character of the slave he sought to free. Also required was evidence of the slave's "ability to gain a livelihood in an honest way."

Although lawmakers of the time could not envision the incredibly vast public welfare structures of a later age, these stipulations became law in order to prevent slaveholders from freeing individuals who would become a burden on the general public.

Interestingly, considering today's accounts of life under slavery, authors Johnson and Roak report instances where free Negroes petitioned to be allowed to become slaves; this because they were unable to support themselves.

Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia (University Press of Virginia-1995) was written by Ervin L. Jordan Jr., an African-American and assistant professor and associate curator of the Special Collections Department, University of Virginia library. He wrote: "One of the more curious aspects of the free black existence in Virginia was their ownership of slaves. Black slave masters owned members of their family and freed them in their wills. Free blacks were encouraged to sell themselves into slavery and had the right to choose their owner through a lengthy court procedure."

In 1816, shortly after his manumission, April moved to Stateburg. Initially he hired slave workers from local owners. When in 1817 he built a gin for Judge Thomas Watries, he credited the judge nine dollars "for hire of carpenter George for 12 days." By 1820 he had purchased two adult males to work in his shop (7). In fewer than four years after being freed, April demonstrated that he had no problem perpetuating an institution he had been released from. He also achieved greater monetary success than most white people of the period.

On June 20, 1820, April appeared in the Sumter District courthouse in Sumterville. Described in court papers submitted by his attorney as a "freed yellow man of about 29 years of age," he requested a name change because it "would yet greatly advance his interest as a tradesman." A new name would also "save him and his children from degradation and contempt which the minds of some do and will attach to the name April." Because "of the kindness" of his former master and as a "Mark of gratitude and respect for him" April asked that his name be changed to William Ellison. His request was granted.

In time the black Ellison family joined the predominantly white Episcopalian church. On August 6, 1824 he was allowed to put a family bench on the first floor, among those of the wealthy white families. Other blacks, free and slave, and poor whites sat in the balcony. Another wealthy Negro family would later join the first floor worshippers.

Between 1822 and the mid-1840s, Ellison gradually built a small empire, acquiring slaves in increasing numbers. He became one of South Carolina's major cotton gin manufacturers, selling his machines as far away as Mississippi. From February 1817 until the War Between the States commenced, his business advertisements appeared regularly in newspapers across the state. These included the Camden Gazette, the Sumter Southern Whig and the Black River Watchman.

Ellison was so successful, due to his utilization of cheap slave labor, that many white competitors went out of business. Such situations discredit impressions that whites dealt only with other whites. Where money was involved, it was apparent that neither Ellison's race or former status were considerations.

In his book, Ervin L. Jordan Jr. writes that, as the great conflagration of 1861-1865 approached: "Free Afro-Virginians were a nascent black middle class under siege, but several acquired property before and during the war. Approximately 169 free blacks owned 145,976 acres in the counties of Amelia, Amherst, Isle of Wight, Nansemond, Prince William and Surry, averaging 870 acres each. Twenty-rune Petersburg blacks each owned property worth $1,000 and continued to purchase more despite the war."

Jordan offers an example: "Gilbert Hunt, a Richmond ex-slave blacksmith, owned two slaves, a house valued at $1,376, and $500 in other properties at his death in 1863." Jordan wrote that "some free black residents of Hampton and Norfolk owned property of considerable value; 17 black Hamptonians possessed property worth a total of $15,000. Thirty-six black men paid taxes as heads of families in Elizabeth City County and were employed as blacksmiths, bricklayers, fishermen, oystermen and day laborers. In three Norfolk County parishes 160 blacks owned a total of $41,158 in real estate and personal property.

The general practice of the period was that plantation owners would buy seed and equip~ ment on credit and settle their outstanding accounts when the annual cotton crop was sold. Ellison, like all free Negroes, could resort to the courts for enforcement of the terms of contract agreements. Several times Ellison successfully sued white men for money owed him.

In 1838 Ellison purchased on time 54.5 acres adjoining his original acreage from one Stephen D. Miller. He moved into a large home on the property. What made the acquisition notable was that Miller had served in the South Carolina legislature, both in the U.S. House of Representatives and the Senate, and while a resident of Stateburg had been governor of the state. Ellison's next door neighbor was Dr. W.W. Anderson, master of "Borough House, a magnificent 18th Century mansion. Anderson's son would win fame in the War Between the States as General "Fighting Dick" Anderson.

By 1847 Ellison owned over 350 acres, and more than 900 by 1860. He raised mostly cotton, with a small acreage set aside for cultivating foodstuffs to feed his family and slaves. In 1840 he owned 30 slaves, and by 1860 he owned 63. His sons, who lived in homes on the property, owned an additional nine slaves. They were trained as gin makers by their father (8). They had spent time in Canada, where many wealthy American Negroes of the period sent their children for advanced formal education. Ellison's sons and daughters married mulattos from Charleston, bringing them to the Ellison plantation to live.

In 1860 Ellison greatly underestimated his worth to tax assessors at $65,000. Even using this falsely stated figure, this man who had been a slave 44 years earlier had achieved great financial success. His wealth outdistanced 90 percent of his white neighbors in Sumter District. In the entire state, only five percent owned as much real estate as Ellison. His wealth was 15 times greater than that of the state's average for whites. And Ellison owned more slaves than 99 percent of the South's slaveholders.

Although a successful businessman and cotton farmer, Ellison's major source of income derived from being a "slave breeder." Slave breeding was looked upon with disgust throughout the South, and the laws of most southern states forbade the sale of slaves under the age of 12. In several states it was illegal to sell inherited slaves (9). Nevertheless, in 1840 Ellison secretly began slave breeding.

While there was subsequent investment return in raising and keeping young males, females were not productive workers in his factory or his cotton fields. As a result, except for a few females he raised to become "breeders," Ellison sold the female and many of the male children born to his female slaves at an average price of $400. Ellison had a reputation as a harsh master. His slaves were said to be the district's worst fed and clothed. On his property was located a small, windowless building where he would chain his problem slaves.

As with the slaves of his white counterparts, occasionally Ellison's slaves ran away. The historians of Sumter District reported that from time to time Ellison advertised for the return of his runaways. On at least one occasion Ellison hired the services of a slave catcher. According to an account by Robert N. Andrews, a white man who had purchased a small hotel in Stateburg in the 1820s, Ellison hired him to run down "a valuable slave. Andrews caught the slave in Belleville, Virginia. He stated: "I was paid on returning home $77.50 and $74 for expenses.

William Ellison died December 5, 1861. His will stated that his estate should pass into the joint hands of his free daughter and his two surviving sons. He bequeathed $500 to the slave daughter he had sold.

Following in their father's footsteps, the Ellison family actively supported the Confederacy throughout the war. They converted nearly their entire plantation to the production of corn, fodder, bacon, corn shucks and cotton for the Confederate armies. They paid $5,000 in taxes during the war. They also invested more than $9,000 in Confederate bonds, treasury notes and certificates in addition to the Confederate currency they held. At the end, all this valuable paper became worthless.

The younger Ellisons contributed more than farm produce, labor and money to the Confederate cause. On March 27, 1863 John Wilson Buckner, William Ellison's oldest grandson, enlisted in the 1st South Carolina Artillery. Buckner served in the company of Captains P.P. Galliard and A.H. Boykin, local white men who knew that Buckner was a Negro. Although it was illegal at the time for a Negro to formally join the Confederate forces, the Ellison family's prestige nullified the law in the minds of Buckner's comrades. Buckner was wounded in action on July 12, 1863. At his funeral in Stateburg in August, 1895 he was praised by his former Confederate officers as being a "faithful soldier."

Following the war the Ellison family fortune quickly dwindled. But many former Negro slave magnates quickly took advantage of circumstances and benefited by virtue of their race. For example Antoine Dubuclet, the previously mentioned New Orleans plantation owner who held more than 100 slaves, became Louisiana state treasurer during Reconstruction, a post he held from 1868 to 1877 (10).

A truer picture of the Old South, one never presented by the nation's mind molders, emerges from this account. The American South had been undergoing structural evolutionary changes far, far greater than generations of Americans have been led to believe. In time, within a relatively short time, the obsolete and economically nonviable institution of slavery would have disappeared. The nation would have been spared awesome traumas from which it would never fully recover.

NOTES

1. The American Negro: Old World Background and New World Experience, Raymond Logan and Irving Cohen New York: Houghton and Mifflin, 1970), p.72.

2. Black Masters: A Free Family of Color in the Old South, Michael P. Johnson and James L. Roak New York: Norton, 1984), p.64.

3. The Forgotten People: Cane River's Creoles of Color, Gary Mills (Baton Rouge, 1977); Black Masters, p.128.

4. Male inheritance expectations in the United States in 1870, 1850-1870, Lee Soltow (New Haven, 1975), p.85.
5. Black Masters, Appendix, Table 7; p.280.

6. Black Masters, p. 62.

7. Information on the Ellison family was obtained from Black Masters; the number of slaves they owned was gained from U.S. Census Reports.

8. In 1860 South Carolina had only 21 gin makers; Ellison, his three sons and a grandson account for five of the total.

9. Neither Black Nor White: Slavery and Race Relations in Brazil and the United States, Carl N. Degler (New York, Macmillan, 1971), p.39;
Negro Slavery in Louisiana, Joe Gray Taylor (Baton Rouge, 1963), pp. 4041.

10. Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution, 1863-1877, Eric Foner (New York; Harper & Row, 1988), p. 47; pp. 353-355.


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[Asclepias]

Actually, a larger percentage of Blacks owned slaves than Whites.

Here's some facts you won't learn in Public School "History Books".

Black Slave Owners Civil War Article by Robert M Grooms

That was funny. I thought you were serious at first.

 

[RKMBrown]

Thats because you are ignorant. KKK and other hate groups use that flag all the time.

They also use the American flag. In fact, your own link says this is an edict mandated by the Grand Wizard himself. No flag shall fly above the American flag.

They use the American flag to show patriotism. I have no issue with that. I do have an issue with any flag they use to promote terrorism.

Ironic isn't it that the American flag was flown by paid mercenaries in the killing of millions of American citizens in the south. The American flag was flown by union soldiers when they burned Atlanta to the ground. How patriotic. Apparently whether an act is terrorism or a heroic deed is merely a matter of personal and arbitrary viewpoint.

 

[Asclepias]

They also use the American flag. In fact, your own link says this is an edict mandated by the Grand Wizard himself. No flag shall fly above the American flag.

They use the American flag to show patriotism. I have no issue with that. I do have an issue with any flag they use to promote terrorism.

Ironic isn't it that the American flag was flown by paid mercenaries in the killing of millions of American citizens in the south. The America flag was flown by union soldiers when they burned Atlanta to the ground. How patriotic. Apparently whether an act is terrorism or a heroic deed is merely a matter of personal and arbitrary viewpoint.

Yes your whining is pathetic. The point is that few people associate the American flag with slavery or racist groups like the KKK. The majority of people see the traitor flag as a symbol of terrorism and racial divide.

 

[Missourian]

Sorry guys, but I fly the Stars and Bars, and it doesn't mean racism to me.

You folks have the right to interpret it wrongly if you see fit to do so.

You even have the right to be offended by it.

And I, conversely, have the right to not give a shit if you are offended.

 

[Asclepias]

Sorry guys, but I fly the Stars and Bars, and it doesn't mean racism to me.

You folks have the right to interpret it wrongly if you see fit to do so.

You even have the right to be offended by it.

And I, conversely, have the right to not give a shit if you are offended.

That pretty much shuts down any conversation. Maybe thats what the OP should have stated instead of whining about how people dont like his flag.

 

[RKMBrown]

Sorry guys, but I fly the Stars and Bars, and it doesn't mean racism to me.

You folks have the right to interpret it wrongly if you see fit to do so.

You even have the right to be offended by it.

And I, conversely, have the right to not give a shit if you are offended.

QFT... Next the PC police will be calling the state of TX flag a racist flag, there is no end to the idiocy of the leftists.

 

[RKMBrown]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3UUS1kx5oE]Confederate National Anthem - Dixie Land - YouTube[/ame]

 

[RKMBrown]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWVgLLnGaWs]Elvis Presley - An American Trilogy - I wish I was in Dixieland (High Quality) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[natstew]

Actually, a larger percentage of Blacks owned slaves than Whites.

Here's some facts you won't learn in Public School "History Books".

Black Slave Owners Civil War Article by Robert M Grooms

That was funny. I thought you were serious at first.

I was serious, and am serious. You're the joke! Actually youre pitiful. You have eyes but refuse to see, and ears but refuse to hear. There's little hope for your kind!

Go to a Theater near you and watch, "America"; Imagine a World without Her.

 

[natstew]

The "Stars and Bars" is the Battle Flag. The Official flag of the "Confederate States Of America" was not the traditional Stars and Bars". The first was the 'Bonnie Blue Flag', a solid blue field with a lone white star in the middle. The Official Flag of the Confederate States evolved through several designs.

I Fly the Stars and Bars in honor of my ancestors, W.J. Stewart and Robert May.
I fly the Star and Stripes in honor of my ancestors, Thomas Dorset and S. Chick.

I spit on Obama for disgracing the America I love.

 

[Nosmo King]

The "Stars and Bars" is the Battle Flag. The Official flag of the "Confederate States Of America" was not the traditional Stars and Bars". The first was the 'Bonnie Blue Flag', a solid blue field with a lone white star in the middle. The Official Flag of the Confederate States evolved through several designs.

I Fly the Stars and Bars in honor of my ancestors, W.J. Stewart and Robert May.
I fly the Star and Stripes in honor of my ancestors, Thomas Dorset and S. Chick.

I spit on Obama for disgracing the America I love.

Has the President engaged in open, violent insurrection against the constitution of the United States of America?

Because if he has, you should fly a flag honoring him in the same spirit you fly the Confederate flag.