The Scientific poof that GOD exists without a doubt.

[emilynghiem]

I watched the first 10 minutes. If God existed before time, why couldn't the cause of the Big Bang have existed before time?

Exactly BULLDOG
No matter how we define God, the Universe or the Source of all Life,
there can always be something that caused that thing to come into existence.

The Universe, including God, can thus be seen as eternal or infinite, self existent, with no beginning and no end.

Since we as humans are finite, in knowledge language and perception, whatever is true about God, the Universe, or Life is faith based, can neither be proven nor disproven to exist or not.

Since this is faith based, what we rely on is whether we can reach agreement on what is true or right.

As long as we agree that God represents the greatest good or collective truth, we can still communicate and operate effectively. Regardless of proof or not.

Hebrews 3:4 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again with an appeal to authority fallacy.

• Gravity. Job 26:7. He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. ...
• Water Cycle. Job 26:8. He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. ...
• The Earth's Core. Job 28: 5. The earth, from which food comes, is transformed below as by fire.

Chronicles 16:30 "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable'' A Geocentric model might be wrong. You have some handy 'quotes'?

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

The Bible verse includes the term "immovable".

How did the gods get that so wrong?

Maybe it refers to climate change or flat earth believers. Who are proof of the immovable!

 

[emilynghiem]

Science now demonstrates that there must be a CREATOR:Watch Christian TV Shows, Ministry Video Broadcasts Online

I'm not clear why anyone not predisposed toward Christian fundamentalism would unquestioningly accept science matters from a Christian ministry. One might expect a certain, you know, bias there.

When did Jimmy Swaggert get his degree in Astrophysics?

True. Laws of science are for settling science matters. Scriptural laws are for settling church matters.

We cannot expect to use a Saw for what Scissors are designed for, or vice versa, then complain that these tools are useless!

 

[emilynghiem]

When are we getting to the scientific proof? ... I want to look over the math if you don't mind ...

Dear ReinyDays I found the most helpful application of scientific method to anything useful in Christian teaching
Is the use of medical studies to document the positive results of Christian Spiritual Healing on curing Rheumatoid Arthritis cases, as an example chosen since there is no cure for RA and the results could only be attributed to the team prayer and healing methods used in the study.

Study funded by Templeton Fdn cited in
HEALING, Francis MacNutt, 1999 or later

These studies can be replicated using different conditions as the focus.
I suggest picking a condition, such as bulimia or anorexic phobias, with greater chance of immediate changes that can be documented faster and save more lives sooner, while longterm conditions such as pedophilia might require 25 years or longer to show stages of recovery and improvement including relapse periods.

 

[BULLDOG]

I watched the first 10 minutes. If God existed before time, why couldn't the cause of the Big Bang have existed before time?

Exactly BULLDOG
No matter how we define God, the Universe or the Source of all Life,
there can always be something that caused that thing to come into existence.

The Universe, including God, can thus be seen as eternal or infinite, self existent, with no beginning and no end.

Since we as humans are finite, in knowledge language and perception, whatever is true about God, the Universe, or Life is faith based, can neither be proven nor disproven to exist or not.

Since this is faith based, what we rely on is whether we can reach agreement on what is true or right.

As long as we agree that God represents the greatest good or collective truth, we can still communicate and operate effectively. Regardless of proof or not.

Hebrews 3:4 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again with an appeal to authority fallacy.

• Gravity. Job 26:7. He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. ...
• Water Cycle. Job 26:8. He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. ...
• The Earth's Core. Job 28: 5. The earth, from which food comes, is transformed below as by fire.

Chronicles 16:30 "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable'' A Geocentric model might be wrong. You have some handy 'quotes'?

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

If the Earth is firm and immovable, it can't follow a course. It's immovable, right?

 

[Hollie]

I watched the first 10 minutes. If God existed before time, why couldn't the cause of the Big Bang have existed before time?

Exactly BULLDOG
No matter how we define God, the Universe or the Source of all Life,
there can always be something that caused that thing to come into existence.

The Universe, including God, can thus be seen as eternal or infinite, self existent, with no beginning and no end.

Since we as humans are finite, in knowledge language and perception, whatever is true about God, the Universe, or Life is faith based, can neither be proven nor disproven to exist or not.

Since this is faith based, what we rely on is whether we can reach agreement on what is true or right.

As long as we agree that God represents the greatest good or collective truth, we can still communicate and operate effectively. Regardless of proof or not.

Hebrews 3:4 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again with an appeal to authority fallacy.

• Gravity. Job 26:7. He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. ...
• Water Cycle. Job 26:8. He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. ...
• The Earth's Core. Job 28: 5. The earth, from which food comes, is transformed below as by fire.

Chronicles 16:30 "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable'' A Geocentric model might be wrong. You have some handy 'quotes'?

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

The Bible verse includes the term "immovable".

How did the gods get that so wrong?

Maybe it refers to climate change or flat earth believers. Who are proof of the immovable!

Or, those who wrote of an immovable earth believed the earth was exactly that. That's what they wrote.

 

[Hollie]

Science now demonstrates that there must be a CREATOR:Watch Christian TV Shows, Ministry Video Broadcasts Online

I'm not clear why anyone not predisposed toward Christian fundamentalism would unquestioningly accept science matters from a Christian ministry. One might expect a certain, you know, bias there.

When did Jimmy Swaggert get his degree in Astrophysics?

True. Laws of science are for settling science matters. Scriptural laws are for settling church matters.

We cannot expect to use a Saw for what Scissors are designed for, or vice versa, then complain that these tools are useless!

So then, why is this thread in the S&T forum?

 

[emilynghiem]

I watched the first 10 minutes. If God existed before time, why couldn't the cause of the Big Bang have existed before time?

Exactly BULLDOG
No matter how we define God, the Universe or the Source of all Life,
there can always be something that caused that thing to come into existence.

The Universe, including God, can thus be seen as eternal or infinite, self existent, with no beginning and no end.

Since we as humans are finite, in knowledge language and perception, whatever is true about God, the Universe, or Life is faith based, can neither be proven nor disproven to exist or not.

Since this is faith based, what we rely on is whether we can reach agreement on what is true or right.

As long as we agree that God represents the greatest good or collective truth, we can still communicate and operate effectively. Regardless of proof or not.

Hebrews 3:4 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again with an appeal to authority fallacy.

• Gravity. Job 26:7. He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. ...
• Water Cycle. Job 26:8. He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. ...
• The Earth's Core. Job 28: 5. The earth, from which food comes, is transformed below as by fire.

Chronicles 16:30 "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable'' A Geocentric model might be wrong. You have some handy 'quotes'?

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

The Bible verse includes the term "immovable".

How did the gods get that so wrong?

Maybe it refers to climate change or flat earth believers. Who are proof of the immovable!

Or, those who wrote of an immovable earth believed the earth was exactly that. That's what they wrote.

Dear Hollie and BULLDOG
The fairest explanation I can find on this passage is that it doesn't mean the planet earth is fixed and immovable.
Because the people back then did not see or refer to earth as a planet.

They likely meant that the land they live on, their relationship to it, does not "shift or change in positions" like the stars do.
Like the phrase describing someone as having their "feet firmly planted on the ground."

They were using earth to mean man's relationship with God is firmly established, as in the center of man's Life.

They had no knowledge or opinion of anything else like life in the universe beyond that.

That is my best interpretation.

 

[BULLDOG]

I watched the first 10 minutes. If God existed before time, why couldn't the cause of the Big Bang have existed before time?

Exactly BULLDOG
No matter how we define God, the Universe or the Source of all Life,
there can always be something that caused that thing to come into existence.

The Universe, including God, can thus be seen as eternal or infinite, self existent, with no beginning and no end.

Since we as humans are finite, in knowledge language and perception, whatever is true about God, the Universe, or Life is faith based, can neither be proven nor disproven to exist or not.

Since this is faith based, what we rely on is whether we can reach agreement on what is true or right.

As long as we agree that God represents the greatest good or collective truth, we can still communicate and operate effectively. Regardless of proof or not.

Hebrews 3:4 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again with an appeal to authority fallacy.

• Gravity. Job 26:7. He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. ...
• Water Cycle. Job 26:8. He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. ...
• The Earth's Core. Job 28: 5. The earth, from which food comes, is transformed below as by fire.

Chronicles 16:30 "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable'' A Geocentric model might be wrong. You have some handy 'quotes'?

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

The Bible verse includes the term "immovable".

How did the gods get that so wrong?

Maybe it refers to climate change or flat earth believers. Who are proof of the immovable!

Or, those who wrote of an immovable earth believed the earth was exactly that. That's what they wrote.

Dear Hollie and BULLDOG
The fairest explanation I can find on this passage is that it doesn't mean the planet earth is fixed and immovable.
Because the people back then did not see or refer to earth as a planet.

They likely meant that the land they live on, their relationship to it, does not "shift or change in positions" like the stars do.
Like the phrase describing someone as having their "feet firmly planted on the ground."

They were using earth to mean man's relationship with God is firmly established, as in the center of man's Life.

They had no knowledge or opinion of anything else like life in the universe beyond that.

That is my best interpretation.

True, but a god who created everything, would know. The Bible isn't portrayed as the opinions of ancient people, as you seem to imply. It is called "THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD" You should make the distinction, and define which parts are God's word, and which parts can only be considered to be the beliefs of people long ago, and then we can have a fair basis for discussion. You can't just jump back and forth between the two, depending on which one doesn't match the point you want to make.

 

[ReinyDays]

When are we getting to the scientific proof? ... I want to look over the math if you don't mind ...

Dear ReinyDays I found the most helpful application of scientific method to anything useful in Christian teaching
Is the use of medical studies to document the positive results of Christian Spiritual Healing on curing Rheumatoid Arthritis cases, as an example chosen since there is no cure for RA and the results could only be attributed to the team prayer and healing methods used in the study.

Study funded by Templeton Fdn cited in
HEALING, Francis MacNutt, 1999 or later

These studies can be replicated using different conditions as the focus.
I suggest picking a condition, such as bulimia or anorexic phobias, with greater chance of immediate changes that can be documented faster and save more lives sooner, while longterm conditions such as pedophilia might require 25 years or longer to show stages of recovery and improvement including relapse periods.

I'm sure that's some interesting results ... there's a number of Oregon parents sitting in prison right now for practicing this on their children ... the children died and the parents convicted of negligent homicide ... apparently this doesn't work for acute appendicitis, meningitis or tetanus ... there's a surprising number of people who seek medical treatment for conditions that will actually go away on their own ... Fifth is a good example, no point in wasting a doctor's time, there's nothing they can do, it will go away on it's own ...

Your citation was published by Ava Maria Publishing, owned and operated by the Roman Catholic Church on the campus of Notre Dame University, Indiana ... not generally considered a reputable refereed scientific journal ... the Catholic Church is usually considered an obstacle to scientific progress ... ask for funding for research on stem cells from aborted fetuses and see what they say ... of course for Spiritual affliction, like bulimia, anorexic and pedophilia, we should look to Spiritual healing ... but if I break my arm, I'm going to need a medical doctor, not a Catholic priest ...

I'm sorry ... science is ill-equipped to define the God-factor in lab experiments ... I give you dust, now make a human ... I give you a young teenage virgin girl, now have her bear a male child without knowing a man ... what mathematical formula delineates good and evil numerically? ...

Ants have religion? ...



Hour long documentry ... the TL;DW version is that a series of wood ant colonies have been shown to work co-operatively, whereas all other wood ant colonies fight each other to the death ... "blessed are the peacemakers" seems to not be exclusively human ...

 

[Hollie]

I watched the first 10 minutes. If God existed before time, why couldn't the cause of the Big Bang have existed before time?

Exactly BULLDOG
No matter how we define God, the Universe or the Source of all Life,
there can always be something that caused that thing to come into existence.

The Universe, including God, can thus be seen as eternal or infinite, self existent, with no beginning and no end.

Since we as humans are finite, in knowledge language and perception, whatever is true about God, the Universe, or Life is faith based, can neither be proven nor disproven to exist or not.

Since this is faith based, what we rely on is whether we can reach agreement on what is true or right.

As long as we agree that God represents the greatest good or collective truth, we can still communicate and operate effectively. Regardless of proof or not.

Hebrews 3:4 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again with an appeal to authority fallacy.

• Gravity. Job 26:7. He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. ...
• Water Cycle. Job 26:8. He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. ...
• The Earth's Core. Job 28: 5. The earth, from which food comes, is transformed below as by fire.

Chronicles 16:30 "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable'' A Geocentric model might be wrong. You have some handy 'quotes'?

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

The Bible verse includes the term "immovable".

How did the gods get that so wrong?

Maybe it refers to climate change or flat earth believers. Who are proof of the immovable!

Or, those who wrote of an immovable earth believed the earth was exactly that. That's what they wrote.

Dear Hollie and BULLDOG
The fairest explanation I can find on this passage is that it doesn't mean the planet earth is fixed and immovable.
Because the people back then did not see or refer to earth as a planet.

They likely meant that the land they live on, their relationship to it, does not "shift or change in positions" like the stars do.
Like the phrase describing someone as having their "feet firmly planted on the ground."

They were using earth to mean man's relationship with God is firmly established, as in the center of man's Life.

They had no knowledge or opinion of anything else like life in the universe beyond that.

That is my best interpretation.

I think what you're doing is offering special pleading in an attempt to do what the gods didn't do: require final editing rights.

Bible believers tend to follow a line of thought that applies equally to believers of competing godly texts;

"My gods are true and inerrant"

and how do we know this?

"This is what I was told the bible says"

and how do we know the bible is true?

"Because I believe it is true."

and why do you believe the bible is true?

"Because I was told the bible is true"


Consider. If you interpret Genesis as simply a parable describing a misbehaving child not following the rules of the parent, it completely dismantles Christianity. There's no original sin thus no need for a savior. Jesus becomes irrelevant and Christianity becomes meaningless.

 

[emilynghiem]

When are we getting to the scientific proof? ... I want to look over the math if you don't mind ...

Dear ReinyDays I found the most helpful application of scientific method to anything useful in Christian teaching
Is the use of medical studies to document the positive results of Christian Spiritual Healing on curing Rheumatoid Arthritis cases, as an example chosen since there is no cure for RA and the results could only be attributed to the team prayer and healing methods used in the study.

Study funded by Templeton Fdn cited in
HEALING, Francis MacNutt, 1999 or later

These studies can be replicated using different conditions as the focus.
I suggest picking a condition, such as bulimia or anorexic phobias, with greater chance of immediate changes that can be documented faster and save more lives sooner, while longterm conditions such as pedophilia might require 25 years or longer to show stages of recovery and improvement including relapse periods.

I'm sure that's some interesting results ... there's a number of Oregon parents sitting in prison right now for practicing this on their children ... the children died and the parents convicted of negligent homicide ... apparently this doesn't work for acute appendicitis, meningitis or tetanus ... there's a surprising number of people who seek medical treatment for conditions that will actually go away on their own ... Fifth is a good example, no point in wasting a doctor's time, there's nothing they can do, it will go away on it's own ...

Your citation was published by Ava Maria Publishing, owned and operated by the Roman Catholic Church on the campus of Notre Dame University, Indiana ... not generally considered a reputable refereed scientific journal ... the Catholic Church is usually considered an obstacle to scientific progress ... ask for funding for research on stem cells from aborted fetuses and see what they say ... of course for Spiritual affliction, like bulimia, anorexic and pedophilia, we should look to Spiritual healing ... but if I break my arm, I'm going to need a medical doctor, not a Catholic priest ...

I'm sorry ... science is ill-equipped to define the God-factor in lab experiments ... I give you dust, now make a human ... I give you a young teenage virgin girl, now have her bear a male child without knowing a man ... what mathematical formula delineates good and evil numerically? ...

Ants have religion? ...



Hour long documentry ... the TL;DW version is that a series of wood ant colonies have been shown to work co-operatively, whereas all other wood ant colonies fight each other to the death ... "blessed are the peacemakers" seems to not be exclusively human ...

Dear ReinyDays
1. First do NOT confuse the false faith healing that is clearly fraudulent and dangerous, if not criminal, with natural spiritual healing that works freely and voluntarily with no negative side effects, risks or dangers. These are completely opposite procedures.
2. The book on HEALING is different from the medical research study conducted, peer reviewed, and published by professional medical standards of study and publication. The book I cited describes and cites the medical study conducted and published independently by professional medical guidelines like any other medical study is required. Templeton Foundation carefully screens the studies they underwrite so their grants are not wasted on poorly designed experiments.

I apologize points 1 and 2 were not clear.

Your objections would be correct otherwise.

 

[emilynghiem]

I watched the first 10 minutes. If God existed before time, why couldn't the cause of the Big Bang have existed before time?

Exactly BULLDOG
No matter how we define God, the Universe or the Source of all Life,
there can always be something that caused that thing to come into existence.

The Universe, including God, can thus be seen as eternal or infinite, self existent, with no beginning and no end.

Since we as humans are finite, in knowledge language and perception, whatever is true about God, the Universe, or Life is faith based, can neither be proven nor disproven to exist or not.

Since this is faith based, what we rely on is whether we can reach agreement on what is true or right.

As long as we agree that God represents the greatest good or collective truth, we can still communicate and operate effectively. Regardless of proof or not.

Hebrews 3:4 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again with an appeal to authority fallacy.

• Gravity. Job 26:7. He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. ...
• Water Cycle. Job 26:8. He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. ...
• The Earth's Core. Job 28: 5. The earth, from which food comes, is transformed below as by fire.

Chronicles 16:30 "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable'' A Geocentric model might be wrong. You have some handy 'quotes'?

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

The Bible verse includes the term "immovable".

How did the gods get that so wrong?

Maybe it refers to climate change or flat earth believers. Who are proof of the immovable!

Or, those who wrote of an immovable earth believed the earth was exactly that. That's what they wrote.

Dear Hollie and BULLDOG
The fairest explanation I can find on this passage is that it doesn't mean the planet earth is fixed and immovable.
Because the people back then did not see or refer to earth as a planet.

They likely meant that the land they live on, their relationship to it, does not "shift or change in positions" like the stars do.
Like the phrase describing someone as having their "feet firmly planted on the ground."

They were using earth to mean man's relationship with God is firmly established, as in the center of man's Life.

They had no knowledge or opinion of anything else like life in the universe beyond that.

That is my best interpretation.

I think what you're doing is offering special pleading in an attempt to do what the gods didn't do: require final editing rights.

Bible believers tend to follow a line of thought that applies equally to believers of competing godly texts;

"My gods are true and inerrant"

and how do we know this?

"This is what I was told the bible says"

and how do we know the bible is true?

"Because I believe it is true."

and why do you believe the bible is true?

"Because I was told the bible is true"


Consider. If you interpret Genesis as simply a parable describing a misbehaving child not following the rules of the parent, it completely dismantles Christianity. There's no original sin thus no need for a savior. Jesus becomes irrelevant and Christianity becomes meaningless.

^ SOME people may argue in circles.

But this should not be used as a strawman to negate all other people who do NOT make or rely on circular arguments.

As many Flat Earthers abuse science to argue their beliefs.

That doesn't mean science is all false just because some people can't use it properly.

In fact, the best way to correct such abuses IS to use science properly for self correction.

Likewise the best way I've found to stop misguided arguments going in circles abusing the Bible, is to use it consistently to correct that.

Hollie

 

[emilynghiem]

I watched the first 10 minutes. If God existed before time, why couldn't the cause of the Big Bang have existed before time?

Exactly BULLDOG
No matter how we define God, the Universe or the Source of all Life,
there can always be something that caused that thing to come into existence.

The Universe, including God, can thus be seen as eternal or infinite, self existent, with no beginning and no end.

Since we as humans are finite, in knowledge language and perception, whatever is true about God, the Universe, or Life is faith based, can neither be proven nor disproven to exist or not.

Since this is faith based, what we rely on is whether we can reach agreement on what is true or right.

As long as we agree that God represents the greatest good or collective truth, we can still communicate and operate effectively. Regardless of proof or not.

Hebrews 3:4 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again with an appeal to authority fallacy.

• Gravity. Job 26:7. He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. ...
• Water Cycle. Job 26:8. He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. ...
• The Earth's Core. Job 28: 5. The earth, from which food comes, is transformed below as by fire.

Chronicles 16:30 "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable'' A Geocentric model might be wrong. You have some handy 'quotes'?

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

The Bible verse includes the term "immovable".

How did the gods get that so wrong?

Maybe it refers to climate change or flat earth believers. Who are proof of the immovable!

Or, those who wrote of an immovable earth believed the earth was exactly that. That's what they wrote.

Dear Hollie and BULLDOG
The fairest explanation I can find on this passage is that it doesn't mean the planet earth is fixed and immovable.
Because the people back then did not see or refer to earth as a planet.

They likely meant that the land they live on, their relationship to it, does not "shift or change in positions" like the stars do.
Like the phrase describing someone as having their "feet firmly planted on the ground."

They were using earth to mean man's relationship with God is firmly established, as in the center of man's Life.

They had no knowledge or opinion of anything else like life in the universe beyond that.

That is my best interpretation.

True, but a god who created everything, would know. The Bible isn't portrayed as the opinions of ancient people, as you seem to imply. It is called "THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD" You should make the distinction, and define which parts are God's word, and which parts can only be considered to be the beliefs of people long ago, and then we can have a fair basis for discussion. You can't just jump back and forth between the two, depending on which one doesn't match the point you want to make.

Dear BULLDOG because each person's process of discerning the two is unique to them, unfortunately the process IS going to jump around and not be clear or linear.

In the end, we will come to agreements point by point, on key principles we agree on and find to be universal.

But this process is as unique as you are. As I am. And as the unique relationship that joins you and me.

So that is why it is going to look so scattered. We do not learn by collectively imposing "one way" on everyone. We learn by individual experience.

Where the order comes in, once you and I agree how to communicate and make sense to each other, then we can expand on this connection and work more effectively in other ways and relationships. We can build from there.

When everyone does that, we can all build more cooperative constructive relationships. And collectively we influence whole institutions and society to work more inclusively and cooperatively, respecting individuals.

The changes occur here and there.

Because people are so diverse, yes, it will look scattered.

 

[ReinyDays]

When are we getting to the scientific proof? ... I want to look over the math if you don't mind ...

Dear ReinyDays I found the most helpful application of scientific method to anything useful in Christian teaching
Is the use of medical studies to document the positive results of Christian Spiritual Healing on curing Rheumatoid Arthritis cases, as an example chosen since there is no cure for RA and the results could only be attributed to the team prayer and healing methods used in the study.

Study funded by Templeton Fdn cited in
HEALING, Francis MacNutt, 1999 or later

These studies can be replicated using different conditions as the focus.
I suggest picking a condition, such as bulimia or anorexic phobias, with greater chance of immediate changes that can be documented faster and save more lives sooner, while longterm conditions such as pedophilia might require 25 years or longer to show stages of recovery and improvement including relapse periods.

I'm sure that's some interesting results ... there's a number of Oregon parents sitting in prison right now for practicing this on their children ... the children died and the parents convicted of negligent homicide ... apparently this doesn't work for acute appendicitis, meningitis or tetanus ... there's a surprising number of people who seek medical treatment for conditions that will actually go away on their own ... Fifth is a good example, no point in wasting a doctor's time, there's nothing they can do, it will go away on it's own ...

Your citation was published by Ava Maria Publishing, owned and operated by the Roman Catholic Church on the campus of Notre Dame University, Indiana ... not generally considered a reputable refereed scientific journal ... the Catholic Church is usually considered an obstacle to scientific progress ... ask for funding for research on stem cells from aborted fetuses and see what they say ... of course for Spiritual affliction, like bulimia, anorexic and pedophilia, we should look to Spiritual healing ... but if I break my arm, I'm going to need a medical doctor, not a Catholic priest ...

I'm sorry ... science is ill-equipped to define the God-factor in lab experiments ... I give you dust, now make a human ... I give you a young teenage virgin girl, now have her bear a male child without knowing a man ... what mathematical formula delineates good and evil numerically? ...

Ants have religion? ...



Hour long documentry ... the TL;DW version is that a series of wood ant colonies have been shown to work co-operatively, whereas all other wood ant colonies fight each other to the death ... "blessed are the peacemakers" seems to not be exclusively human ...

Dear ReinyDays
1. First do NOT confuse the false faith healing that is clearly fraudulent and dangerous, if not criminal, with natural spiritual healing that works freely and voluntarily with no negative side effects, risks or dangers. These are completely opposite procedures.
2. The book on HEALING is different from the medical research study conducted, peer reviewed, and published by professional medical standards of study and publication. The book I cited describes and cites the medical study conducted and published independently by professional medical guidelines like any other medical study is required. Templeton Foundation carefully screens the studies they underwrite so their grants are not wasted on poorly designed experiments.

I apologize points 1 and 2 were not clear.

Your objections would be correct otherwise.

Wait ... WHAT ?!? ... for these to be scientific trials, we have to have our RA volunteers stop their medical treatment ... otherwise how would we know if the Spirit Healing caused the positive outcome or if it was the regular on-going medical treatments ... there might not be a cure, but there's certainly relief in a bottle of Advil ... worse, we can only provide Spirit Healing to half our volunteers, the other half go without treatment as a control group ... if you have Father McNutt's book, I'd like to know how the double-blind principles were established ... how do we get the clinician to provide bogus therapy without the clinician knowing it's bogus? ... just volunteering for this study may provide all the healing effects, Spirit arises from within, also called the Placebo Effect ...

It doesn't matter how many scientific papers Father McNutt cites in his book ... his book itself is profoundly non-scientific and is just his own personal opinion ... strictly philosophy ... but please check if any of his citations are available over the web, I'd be happy to read them over ... medical doctors are trying to kill us, hospitals are Cathedrals of Death ... when we run out of money, it's off to the morgue for us ...

 

[BULLDOG]

I watched the first 10 minutes. If God existed before time, why couldn't the cause of the Big Bang have existed before time?

Exactly BULLDOG
No matter how we define God, the Universe or the Source of all Life,
there can always be something that caused that thing to come into existence.

The Universe, including God, can thus be seen as eternal or infinite, self existent, with no beginning and no end.

Since we as humans are finite, in knowledge language and perception, whatever is true about God, the Universe, or Life is faith based, can neither be proven nor disproven to exist or not.

Since this is faith based, what we rely on is whether we can reach agreement on what is true or right.

As long as we agree that God represents the greatest good or collective truth, we can still communicate and operate effectively. Regardless of proof or not.

Hebrews 3:4 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again with an appeal to authority fallacy.

• Gravity. Job 26:7. He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. ...
• Water Cycle. Job 26:8. He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. ...
• The Earth's Core. Job 28: 5. The earth, from which food comes, is transformed below as by fire.

Chronicles 16:30 "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable'' A Geocentric model might be wrong. You have some handy 'quotes'?

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

The Bible verse includes the term "immovable".

How did the gods get that so wrong?

Maybe it refers to climate change or flat earth believers. Who are proof of the immovable!

Or, those who wrote of an immovable earth believed the earth was exactly that. That's what they wrote.

Dear Hollie and BULLDOG
The fairest explanation I can find on this passage is that it doesn't mean the planet earth is fixed and immovable.
Because the people back then did not see or refer to earth as a planet.

They likely meant that the land they live on, their relationship to it, does not "shift or change in positions" like the stars do.
Like the phrase describing someone as having their "feet firmly planted on the ground."

They were using earth to mean man's relationship with God is firmly established, as in the center of man's Life.

They had no knowledge or opinion of anything else like life in the universe beyond that.

That is my best interpretation.

True, but a god who created everything, would know. The Bible isn't portrayed as the opinions of ancient people, as you seem to imply. It is called "THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD" You should make the distinction, and define which parts are God's word, and which parts can only be considered to be the beliefs of people long ago, and then we can have a fair basis for discussion. You can't just jump back and forth between the two, depending on which one doesn't match the point you want to make.

Dear BULLDOG because each person's process of discerning the two is unique to them, unfortunately the process IS going to jump around and not be clear or linear.

In the end, we will come to agreements point by point, on key principles we agree on and find to be universal.

But this process is as unique as you are. As I am. And as the unique relationship that joins you and me.

So that is why it is going to look so scattered. We do not learn by collectively imposing "one way" on everyone. We learn by individual experience.

Where the order comes in, once you and I agree how to communicate and make sense to each other, then we can expand on this connection and work more effectively in other ways and relationships. We can build from there.

When everyone does that, we can all build more cooperative constructive relationships. And collectively we influence whole institutions and society to work more inclusively and cooperatively, respecting individuals.

The changes occur here and there.

Because people are so diverse, yes, it will look scattered.

I mostly agree with you, but that doesn't change the fact that the bible is either the inerrant word of God, or it isn't. If you believe it isn't, then large chunks of Christian dogma become total crap. If you believe it is, then rational discussion is not possible.

 

[LittleNipper]

I watched the first 10 minutes. If God existed before time, why couldn't the cause of the Big Bang have existed before time?

Exactly BULLDOG
No matter how we define God, the Universe or the Source of all Life,
there can always be something that caused that thing to come into existence.

The Universe, including God, can thus be seen as eternal or infinite, self existent, with no beginning and no end.

Since we as humans are finite, in knowledge language and perception, whatever is true about God, the Universe, or Life is faith based, can neither be proven nor disproven to exist or not.

Since this is faith based, what we rely on is whether we can reach agreement on what is true or right.

As long as we agree that God represents the greatest good or collective truth, we can still communicate and operate effectively. Regardless of proof or not.

Hebrews 3:4 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again with an appeal to authority fallacy.

• Gravity. Job 26:7. He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. ...
• Water Cycle. Job 26:8. He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. ...
• The Earth's Core. Job 28: 5. The earth, from which food comes, is transformed below as by fire.

Chronicles 16:30 "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable'' A Geocentric model might be wrong. You have some handy 'quotes'?

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

The Bible verse includes the term "immovable".

How did the gods get that so wrong?

Maybe it refers to climate change or flat earth believers. Who are proof of the immovable!

Or, those who wrote of an immovable earth believed the earth was exactly that. That's what they wrote.

Dear Hollie and BULLDOG
The fairest explanation I can find on this passage is that it doesn't mean the planet earth is fixed and immovable.
Because the people back then did not see or refer to earth as a planet.

They likely meant that the land they live on, their relationship to it, does not "shift or change in positions" like the stars do.
Like the phrase describing someone as having their "feet firmly planted on the ground."

They were using earth to mean man's relationship with God is firmly established, as in the center of man's Life.

They had no knowledge or opinion of anything else like life in the universe beyond that.

That is my best interpretation.

I think what you're doing is offering special pleading in an attempt to do what the gods didn't do: require final editing rights.

Bible believers tend to follow a line of thought that applies equally to believers of competing godly texts;

"My gods are true and inerrant"

and how do we know this?

"This is what I was told the bible says"

and how do we know the bible is true?

"Because I believe it is true."

and why do you believe the bible is true?

"Because I was told the bible is true"


Consider. If you interpret Genesis as simply a parable describing a misbehaving child not following the rules of the parent, it completely dismantles Christianity. There's no original sin thus no need for a savior. Jesus becomes irrelevant and Christianity becomes meaningless.

My GOD is different from other gods. Read The Bible and read the literature concerning those other gods. As you say, it's like comparing a pair of scissors to some saw. I have a relationship, and not simply a series of tales. The story of Adam and Eve is very sad. Here we have a couple made for each other by the loving hand of GOD -- Eve is even a part of Adam. And GOD warns Adam that if they eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil things will change and not for the better.
At first Adam apparently is so concerned that it appears that he told Eve not to even so much as touch the fruit. But, Satan applied his lies and tempted both Eve and Adam by saying GOD was withholding knowledge from them, and power, and they could be like GOD. This is what Satan himself desired ------ to usurp GOD and take HIS place.

So, Eve takes and eats the fruit, and Adam must have been listening all along because He is right there to eat also. And so what happens, The prince ---- Adam, throws his beloved under the bus and even throws the blame at GOD. The woman YOU made for me did eat and gave it to me, and Eve blames the serpent. Adam doesn't say, "It's all my fault! Please punish me but don't harm Eve! Forgive me GOD... But Adam had changed. The Spirit of GOD within him had died, and he is alone.

 

[LittleNipper]

I watched the first 10 minutes. If God existed before time, why couldn't the cause of the Big Bang have existed before time?

Exactly BULLDOG
No matter how we define God, the Universe or the Source of all Life,
there can always be something that caused that thing to come into existence.

The Universe, including God, can thus be seen as eternal or infinite, self existent, with no beginning and no end.

Since we as humans are finite, in knowledge language and perception, whatever is true about God, the Universe, or Life is faith based, can neither be proven nor disproven to exist or not.

Since this is faith based, what we rely on is whether we can reach agreement on what is true or right.

As long as we agree that God represents the greatest good or collective truth, we can still communicate and operate effectively. Regardless of proof or not.

Hebrews 3:4 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again with an appeal to authority fallacy.

• Gravity. Job 26:7. He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. ...
• Water Cycle. Job 26:8. He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. ...
• The Earth's Core. Job 28: 5. The earth, from which food comes, is transformed below as by fire.

Chronicles 16:30 "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable'' A Geocentric model might be wrong. You have some handy 'quotes'?

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

The Bible verse includes the term "immovable".

How did the gods get that so wrong?

Maybe it refers to climate change or flat earth believers. Who are proof of the immovable!

Or, those who wrote of an immovable earth believed the earth was exactly that. That's what they wrote.

Again, when has the earth moved out from under your feet. And when has the earth speed up in its spinning or jumped out of orbit. Can I depend on the seasons or not? Can I count on morning, noon, and night? Does the moon go through its phases or are they undependable? I'm not going to argue with you. The truth is obvious enough for most people.

 

[BULLDOG]

I watched the first 10 minutes. If God existed before time, why couldn't the cause of the Big Bang have existed before time?

Exactly BULLDOG
No matter how we define God, the Universe or the Source of all Life,
there can always be something that caused that thing to come into existence.

The Universe, including God, can thus be seen as eternal or infinite, self existent, with no beginning and no end.

Since we as humans are finite, in knowledge language and perception, whatever is true about God, the Universe, or Life is faith based, can neither be proven nor disproven to exist or not.

Since this is faith based, what we rely on is whether we can reach agreement on what is true or right.

As long as we agree that God represents the greatest good or collective truth, we can still communicate and operate effectively. Regardless of proof or not.

Hebrews 3:4 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again with an appeal to authority fallacy.

• Gravity. Job 26:7. He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. ...
• Water Cycle. Job 26:8. He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. ...
• The Earth's Core. Job 28: 5. The earth, from which food comes, is transformed below as by fire.

Chronicles 16:30 "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable'' A Geocentric model might be wrong. You have some handy 'quotes'?

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

The Bible verse includes the term "immovable".

How did the gods get that so wrong?

Maybe it refers to climate change or flat earth believers. Who are proof of the immovable!

Or, those who wrote of an immovable earth believed the earth was exactly that. That's what they wrote.

Again, when has the earth moved out from under your feet. And when has the earth speed up in its spinning or jumped out of orbit. Can I depend on the seasons or not? Can I count on morning, noon, and night? Does the moon go through its phases or are they undependable? I'm not going to argue with you. The truth is obvious enough for most people.

If he Earth was firm and unmovable, none of those things would be possible.

 

[GLASNOST]

Out planet follows a course, it's not simply drifting in space. How would ancient man know all this?

Ancient man knew nothing. That is why he believed in hokus-pokus and created superstitious rumble-mumba called "religion". Today we have science instead to either prove or disprove religious balderdash through something ancient man did not have: KNOWLEDGE.

 

[GLASNOST]

My GOD is different from other gods.

I see. So you don't believe in Monotheism.