Trump and Evangelical religion pro's and con's. Should Religion even be involved in the election?

Agreed. But that's not what you're selling. You're selling something different - "Without government owning the means of production, you're nothing", and I just don't buy that. Socialists routinely pretend that community, compassion, mutual support etc ... can only happen via government mandates. When, in fact, mandated "community" isn't community at all. It's just drones following orders. Real community, the kind that binds us together in a meaningful way, can only happen through voluntary collaboration.
So we can't organize a government? A democratic government is just a social apparatus, a social institution, organized by the people to manage their large-scale socioeconomic and civil affairs and projects. It's not inherently good, nor is it inherently evil, it's whatever you and I and everybody else in our society decide it's going to be (it's a management tool). If you want to live in a modern, civil, peace-loving country, that respects and protects people's human rights, with a large population like ours, then we need a democratic government. Did you notice the word, "democratic"? It means "rule of the people"., through a democratic process and respect for law and order

In a marketless system of mass production, the government offers its vast, extensive resources to assist its citizens in organizing mass production. It manages our commonwealth, like a management company. The government's "Central Planning Department, or CPD", in collaboration with the labor unions and worker cooperatives, provides all of the facilities, machinery, intelligent worker robots, AGI, supercomputers, all of the self-driving, autonomous mining and shipping vehicles, harvester drones..etc. All of this is our "commonwealth", it belongs to all Americans.

You and I own the means of production, all of these technological wonders, together, as a community. The government is just a publicly owned management company, that's it. The logistics and accounting of mass production are done by the CPD, with all of its resources dedicated to making sure you have more shoes and smartphones you'll know what to do with. Food, housing (if you already have a house or land, you keep it, period, it's yours), cars, your AR15 collection, your computers, your personal robot assistant..etc. It's all yours. That's personal property.

There are regular elections. You don't have to wait two years before you can elect someone to represent your district's needs, in the US Congress. You can keep that delegate in office for 20 years, or you can elect him or her and then recall them for incompetence or corruption, after only two months of them being in office.

Every current federal congressional district in your state or county will have Community Activism Centers or CACs, where you can organize drives, and different campaigns to educate the public and call them to become active participants in the democratic political process. All Americans, regardless of their political views, can attend district council meetings, expressing their concerns, grievances, petitions, calls for a referendum, and policy proposals on the podium, before the elected district councilors and their fellow citizens.

The CAC has different "Action Committees" that focus on specific issues and interests, addressing them directly. Any citizen can participate and even hold a chair in one of these action committees. This is just a basic description of how it could be.


This idea that a democratic-socialist government is by default tyrannical, is nonsense. We're Americans, we're not socialists from some other country or culture. American council-socialism/democratic socialism has its own unique characteristics, which include a love for freedom, justice, and a right to defend ourselves against tyranny.

We're for the people owning combat rifles, with ammunition. The government will actually provide you with a combat rifle and 1000 rounds of armor-piercing ammo. You can open carry a pistol in public or conceal carry. That's my political party's stance on firearms. Do we sound like Chinese communists? We're American Democratic Socialists. Yes, we are nationalists, = AMERICA FIRST. The real MAGA. We're not fake MAGA.
 
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I on the other hand don't get worked up over politics because it doesn't affect me one bit.

i. Trump and Evangelical religion pro's and con's. Should Religion even be involved in the election? 240904 {post•543}

NotfooledbyW Sep’24 Vtaerp: Then why do you persistently argue in favor of the biggest political lie.of our generation? The Norman Rockwell Lie spread by the white Christian dominated Republican Party that is not supported by the historical record and writings of our non-Christian political founders.

If you did not care you would not engage,

You have engaged but when you get stuck or caught lying you claim to be disengaged, You are a liar.

You want to shame women politically and religiously and morally if they become pregnant in a situation not approved to the cult of one kingdom of god that you have ‘politically’ dreamt up for yourself Saint_Ding.

You are fooling very few with your nonsense.

nfbw 240904 Vtaerp543
 
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Some people don't get it. They've been brainwashed by their capitalist masters to always see the government as evil and their capitalist masters as angelic buddies from heaven.
Your simple post is absolutely true. They are brainwashed and they believe the conmen and scam artists that lead them. Simple common sense does not exist in their brains

This is what happens with no government:

Anarchy.jpg
 
i. Trump and Evangelical religion pro's and con's. Should Religion even be involved in the election? 240904 {post•543}

NotfooledbyW Sep’24 Vtaerp: Then why do you persistently argue in favor of the biggest political lie.of our generation? The Norman Rockwell Lie spread by the white Christian dominated Republican Party that is not supported by the historical record and writings of our non-Christian political founders.

If you did not care you would not engage,

You have engaged but when you get stuck or caught lying you claim to be disengaged, You are a liar.

You want to shame women politically and religiously and morally if they become pregnant in a situation not approved to the cult of one kingdom of god that you have ‘politically’ dreamt up for yourself Saint_Ding.

You are fooling very few with your nonsense.

nfbw 240904 Vtaerp543
Tell me more about your political views. It's so fascinating.
 
Depends on what the "guidelines" are. I might be ready to do the opposite.

I'm sure putting people in jail makes you feel all tingly inside. That's now nationalists roll.
Hey, I am a believer in the Constitution and the law. If that makes me a nationalist, then so be it.

What does that make you, given you do not believe in them? A traitor?
 
it will be the end of the world for you

i. Trump and Evangelical religion pro's and con's. Should Religion even be involved in the election? 240904 {post•. }

It won’t be the end of the world for me Saint_Ding. My world is truth centered, Trump’s truth deficient authoritarian white Christian movement works against itself in the long run.

Texas is becoming closer to blue by a couple percentage points every national election. It’s just a matter of time.

As we speak. I’m taking my granddaughter for a walk in our classical Northern Virginia multicultural multiracial multi-love thy neighborhood.

All the parents and grandparents are picking up their kids as the school buses drop them off. We just encountered a Muslim grandma and her grandkids; two girls and a little boy smiling and happy to be living in Joe Biden’s America not Donald Trump’s America or your white European Christian Heritage America.

If Trump becomes president again the hate and the lies and the corruption and contempt for American pluralism and freedom of conscience will not stop. That much is true.

But If you think that you hate will defeat anything you are more stupid than I ever suspected you of being.

Just noticed my granddaughter took her socks off and threw them on the ground. Guess I have to retrace my footsteps and put the world in order that way.. The world will be put in order even if demented Trump wins, Simple act of kindness, not hate will overcome. I am confident of that. It’s just too goddamn bad that it won’t succeed in November if Trump wins.
 
Hey, I am a believer in the Constitution and the law. If that makes me a nationalist, then so be it.
The reason I suggested you were a nationalist was your overriding concern for the good of the nation, especially when contrasted with the freedom of the individual.

That is what the left is trying to accomplish..........a healthy nation.

The right is trying to accomplish the same thing (under Trump, Republicans are also nationalists). They think a "healthy nation" is one that keeps a lid on our freaks, promotes Christianity, etc, etc ...

I don't think either side has any right to force their vision of the good life on everyone else. It shouldn't be up to the government to decide what a "healthy nation" looks like nor should they attempt to push us all to comply. We should sort that out non-violently, collaboratively. As a society, not as a nation.
 
So we can't organize a government?
Hmmm. I never said that, so you can put that strawman to bed.

If you want to live in a modern, civil, peace-loving country, that respects and protects people's human rights, with a large population like ours, then we need a democratic government. Did you notice the word, "democratic"? It means "rule of the people"., through a democratic process and respect for law and order.
Yeah. I noticed. And I get that, for liberals, majority rule imbues any ambition with infallible virtue. They seem to think that anything "democratic" is unquestionably good and should be embraced. I don't buy that. The more important question, in my view, isn't whether decisions are democratic. Before we bother with a vote, we should ask ourselves whether we really need to use government to solve whatever problem we're worried about. If so, if it's really necessary to force everyone to comply to one policy, then democracy is a reasonable way to decide what that policy should be.

But liberals, and socialists, tend to skip over that question. To them, ideally, everything in society would be "democratic", and the majority should always get their way.

You and I own the means of production, all of these technological wonders, together, as a community. The government is just a publicly owned management company, that's it.
That's exactly what I'm rejecting. Government isn't there to "manage" the country. It isn't there to dictate to society. It's there to protect our rights to decide for ourselves what society should look like.

Yes, we are nationalists, = AMERICA FIRST. The real MAGA. We're not fake MAGA.
Nationalism is poison.
 
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Tell me more about your political views. It's so fascinating.

I believe all Americans should vote to preserve the common good for the multicultural and multiracial and both genders of free individuals that America presently stands for.

That common good includes preserving the right of women to determine what is good for their own personal life liberty and pursuit of happiness when they become pregnant regardless of how and why.

And I welcome the sane Christians being involved for the common good.



Kamala Harris.

Kamala Harris speaks at Triumph Church in Southfield, Mich., in 2020.Carlos Osorio / AP file

Aug. 25, 2024, 6:00 AM EDT
By Doug Pagitt, executive director of Vote Common Good

During the last month, Christians for Kamala joined the ranks of groups supporting Vice President Kamala Harris and her running mate, Gov. Tim Walz of Minnesota. In so doing, they stand beside groups as wide-ranging as Comics for Kamala and Deadheads for Kamala. Because Harris has shown she will include us all in her vision for the United States and bring together what has been torn apart, all of these groups have seized upon the newfound enthusiasm among the electorate since President Joe Biden dropped out of the race in July and endorsed Harris.

A religious coalition such as this entering the chat is an important step in the right direction and could help sway religious voters in battleground states.

A religious coalition such as this entering the chat is an important step in the right direction, and, if built upon, could help sway enough movable religious voters in critical battleground states such as Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. What’s more, it could mean breaking the stronghold that MAGA forces have on many of our country’s evangelical voters. Thanks in part to the cooperation of so many self-identified Christian voters, the MAGA movement has seized control of the Republican Party and helped lead our country down a dark, democracy-threatening path.


Former President Donald Trump and his team know this, and it’s at the core of their strategy in the lead-up to the November election. Compared with 2016, an erosion of his support from white men was Trump’s biggest problem in 2020, and his campaign is working overtime to fix that in 2024. In many places, this means courting white Christian men, especially from the evangelical and Catholic traditions. That’s one of the reasons he picked Sen. JD Vance, R-Ohio, who converted to Catholicismfive years ago, as his running mate.

Central to our work at Vote Common Good, I spend a lot of my time traveling the country speaking to voters, particularly evangelical and Catholic voters who are hardwired into voting Republican, working to get them to break out of those patterns.

What I’ve learned is that most don’t want or need their elected leader to be like them, but they really do want their leader to like them. It wasn’t clear that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton liked evangelical and Catholic men when she ran for president in 2016, and it remains largely unclear to many of these voters in 2024 if Kamala Harris does.

Trump, on the other hand, probably doesn’t like them, but he put his arms around these voters in a transactional exchange, and he promised and in some cases delivered them power.

But on the trail in 2020, 2022 and this year, I’ve gleaned the reason many evangelical and Christian voters ultimately leave Trump: his obvious lack of kindness. A poll that my organization Vote Common Good commissioned in 2020 showed that in swing states, Trump’s lack of kindness was driving evangelical and Catholic voters away in large enough numbers to potentially affect the outcome of the election.


1724155082041_n_mj_warnock_240820_1920x1080-dkg1r4.jpg



'I take great offense': Sen. Warnock on Trump weaponizing symbols of country and faith

Voters typically realize that the way they vote reflects on them. And those religious voters who defected from Trump didn’t like the way his unkindness reflected on them, whether it be putting migrant children in cages, the way he treats women, the way he treats the press, the way he treats nearly everyone who left his administration and the way he treats democracy itself. Many of these voters know that’s not the behavior they want their children to emulate.

The Harris campaign clearly knows it has an opportunity here. The choice of Tim Walz as vice presidential nominee is in no small part evidence of that. But it isn’t nearly enough.

Democrats more broadly need to embrace the idea that evangelicals, and especially white male evangelicals, are worth winning and can be won without the party compromising its values.

What Democrats are pushing for lines up with the values evangelicals hold dear: making the world better and bringing people together.

What it’s going to take is a concerted, grassroots effort to reach these voters, listen to them and bring them along on a journey to help them understand it’s OK for them to let concern for the common good, and not allegiance to a political party, determine how they vote.

We need to tell them that what Democrats are pushing for lines up with the values evangelicals hold dear — making the world better and bringing people together. Those policies include commonsense gun reform to keep kids safe, engaging solutions at the border and lowering the cost of child care.

Many Christians are heartbroken at the idea that they have to choose between a faith that’s meaningful to them and a political identity that has been wedded to it. They don’t know what to do, and we need to help them separate those two identities.

Hayes Brown
It will take an effort like the one we made in Kent County, Mich., home to Grand Rapids and several Christian universities, before the 2020 election. We held voter rallies and roundtables; put up billboards juxtaposing the words of Jesus Christ with those of Trump; sent thousands of postcards to evangelical voters; and trained multiple local Democratic candidates on how to engage with faith voters. Our message to the 25% of the Kent County electorate that identified as evangelical was simple: Trump lacks kindness and it’s OK not to vote for the Republican.


1723690850460_n_reidout_harrisevangelicals_240814_1920x1080-nqe7hi.jpg



Divine intervention? Evangelicals once 'hijacked by MAGA’ flock to Harris-Walz ticket

Trump beat Clinton by 3 points in Kent County in 2016. In 2020, he lost to Biden there by 6 points, a 9-point swing.
I always believed a shift like that was possible, and I was at the convention in Chicago telling everyone who would listen the Kent County story and making the case that we cannot ignore evangelical voters.

My efforts included being on a panel focused on how to move gettable voters.
I think it’s possible for Harris to receive the highest level of evangelical support since Carter.

Biden did better than Hillary Clinton did with evangelical voters, and if we come together and don’t leave these folks to Trump, I think it’s possible for Harris to receive the highest level of evangelical support since Jimmy Carter got roughly half the evangelical vote in 1976. And if that were to happen, it would break the back of the MAGA movement.

Now that the convention is over, we’ll be fueling up our bus, hitting the road and driving to Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Arizona and back to some of those same places again. We won’t leave movable voters out there on their own. We’ll let them know that they can make that switch, and they won’t be shunned or punished for it. We won’t give up on them, because they can help save our country from the antidemocratic policies the MAGA movement has been unleashing. Christians for Kamala, which I’m a part of, will make sure Christian faith voters are engaged in the political process.
 
Harris is using abortion as her tool.


Harris to tour swing states on abortion battle bus.​

You should agree with her if you believe individual freedom in the United States of America should be protected from white evangelical Christians and super fanatical Catholics, who vote for Republican politicians to seize control of pregnant women’s bodies.
 
Hmmm. I never said that, so you can put that strawman to bed.


Yeah. I noticed. And I get that, for liberals, majority rule imbues any ambition with infallible virtue. They seem to think that anything "democratic" is unquestionably good and should be embraced. I don't buy that. The more important question, in my view, isn't whether decisions are democratic. Before we bother with a vote, we should ask ourselves whether we really need to use government to solve whatever problem we're worried about. If so, if it's really necessary to force everyone to comply to one policy, then democracy is a reasonable way to decide what that policy should be.

But liberals, and socialists, tend to skip over that question. To them, ideally, everything in society would be "democratic", and the majority should always get their way.


That's exactly what I'm rejecting. Government isn't there to "manage" the country. It isn't there to dictate to society. It's there to protect our rights to decide for ourselves what society should look like.


Nationalism is poison.
I also mentioned the rule of law and human rights. Why didn't you mention that? It's not just democracy or the rule of the majority but the rule of law. People have human rights, that can't be legitimately violated, and their validity is never in question or up for a vote.

I agree that if we can avoid government involvement in a certain human activity we should, but if relying on government services in a certain area of life is required and beneficial, then there's no reason to deprive ourselves of such government assistance.

Capitalists and their cronies hate it when working-class people receive services from the government because they're losing an opportunity to make money. Capitalists want to commodity everything.

Capitalists want to own all of the nation's resources, and the mere thought of the working class collectively owning anything of the nation's wealth repulses them. These same capitalist elites, have no problem receiving government services and assistance from the "evil government":

RankParentSubsidy Valuesort iconNumber of Awards
1Boeing$15,496,865,703958
2Intel$8,421,707,656135
3Ford Motor$7,742,056,086703
4General Motors$7,524,714,800792
5Micron Technology$6,790,131,91521
6Amazon.com$5,823,705,434460
7Alcoa$5,727,691,764134
8Cheniere Energy$5,617,152,52343
9Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)$4,820,110,11274
10Venture Global LNG$4,338,702,4418
11Texas Instruments$4,286,328,86969
12Volkswagen$3,977,630,513217
13Sempra Energy$3,828,022,78251
14NRG Energy$3,415,751,518266
15NextEra Energy$3,008,691,129116
16Sasol$2,836,049,84572
17Tesla Inc.$2,829,855,494114
18Stellantis$2,795,436,436213
19Walt Disney$2,543,219,673265
20Nucor$2,538,761,123176
21Iberdrola$2,380,558,984110
22Rivian Automotive Inc.$2,364,054,0127
23Hyundai Motor$2,349,743,47018
24Oracle$2,272,418,28896
25Shell PLC$2,211,676,001132
26Mubadala Investment Company$2,124,035,09762
27Nike$2,104,917,829153
28Meta Platforms Inc.$2,098,261,27282
29Toyota$2,071,010,689239
30Alphabet Inc.$2,054,325,527125
31Brookfield Corporation$1,979,408,388288
32Paramount Global$1,974,249,897342
33Comcast$1,927,402,844405
34Exxon Mobil$1,917,119,478241
35Samsung Electronics$1,891,136,59741
36Apple Inc.$1,845,004,67063
37Nissan$1,842,814,16598
38Berkshire Hathaway$1,830,986,2531,200
39Summit Power$1,783,593,4146
40JPMorgan Chase$1,740,972,6991,151
41Energy Transfer$1,736,836,843175
42Cleveland-Cliffs$1,705,497,604129
43Southern Company$1,694,958,17245
44General Electric$1,645,135,367958
45Vornado Realty Trust$1,623,857,33633
46Duke Energy$1,580,421,86986
47Wolfspeed Inc.$1,563,595,61064
48General Atomics$1,510,875,891112
49IBM Corp.$1,497,901,697368
50Lockheed Martin$1,462,674,082325
51OGE Energy$1,427,570,18215
52SCS Energy$1,419,011,7965
53Corning Inc.$1,391,603,359401
54Panasonic$1,384,147,58461
55Microsoft$1,366,243,159113
56Sagamore Development$1,320,000,0002
57Northrop Grumman$1,284,014,883285
58Vingroup$1,254,000,0001
59Continental AG$1,244,875,478111
60RTX Corporation$1,193,950,954797
61CF Industries$1,134,394,215131
62Valero Energy$1,053,812,692207
63Dow Inc.$1,049,354,213640
64AES Corp.$1,039,510,135136
65Air Products & Chemicals$1,025,557,48288
66Exelon$986,892,87798
67Pyramid Companies$973,565,27893
68SK Holdings$960,550,2838
69SkyWest$944,296,654339
70Centene$916,607,05460
71Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.$900,000,0001
72Apollo Global Management$897,750,089594
73Delta Air Lines$871,485,83313
74Jefferies Financial Group$871,137,33516
75SK Hynix$866,700,0002
76Bayer$852,475,226217
77Honda$849,832,30193
78Shin-Etsu Chemical$828,683,936106
79Enterprise Products Partners$826,988,37189
80SunEdison$817,425,725115
81Goldman Sachs$800,873,386253
82Bank of America$798,426,128956
83E.ON$786,865,47340
84Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.$786,835,708219
85EDF-Electricite de France$774,590,44136
86Triple Five Worldwide$748,000,0004
87EDP-Energias de Portugal$733,674,86814
88Related Companies$714,675,5048
89Koch Industries$683,066,388510
90Caithness Energy$672,688,88830
91Dell Technologies$658,417,951185
92Wells Fargo$657,333,216542
93FedEx$647,035,546633
94Entergy$638,533,387235
95OCI N.V.$627,879,4065
96Eli Lilly$623,326,36879
97Chevron Phillips Chemical$619,839,44420
98Bedrock Detroit$618,000,0001
99Dominion Energy$615,436,08979
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When advanced automation and AI replace most jobs, we're going to have to organize mass production without markets and that's going to require the government to involve itself in the logistics and accounting of the nation's mass production of goods and services. This is inevitable due to the replacement of human wage labor with intelligent autonomous machines that don't need human operators.
 
You should agree with her if you believe individual freedom in the United States of America should be protected from white evangelical Christians and super fanatical Catholics, who vote for Republican politicians to seize control of pregnant women’s bodies.

No individuals should be free to murder innocent babies.
 

I also mentioned the rule of law and human rights. Why didn't you mention that? It's not just democracy or the rule of the majority but the rule of law. People have human rights, that can't be legitimately violated, and their validity is never in question or up for a vote.

I agree that if we can avoid government involvement in a certain human activity we should, but if relying on government services in a certain area of life is required and beneficial, then there's no reason to deprive ourselves of such government assistance.
Agreed. And for the vast majority of problems we face as a society, it's not required.

Capitalists and their cronies hate it when working-class people receive services from the government because they're losing an opportunity to make money. Capitalists want to commodity everything.
Yeah, yeah. The usual stereotypes. I don't oppose state welfare for those reasons.

[cut and paste propaganda omitted]

When advanced automation and AI replace most jobs, we're going to have to organize mass production without markets and that's going to require the government to involve itself in the logistics and accounting of the nation's mass production of goods and services. This is inevitable due to the replacement of human wage labor with intelligent autonomous machines that don't need human operators.

🤦 Marxists love to talk about what is "inevitable". We'll find a way to make good use of AI, and no socialism will be required.
 
Your simple post is absolutely true. They are brainwashed and they believe the conmen and scam artists that lead them. Simple common sense does not exist in their brains

This is what happens with no government:

View attachment 1006446
I don’t trust corporate America based on their track record and I don’t trust government based on their track record. I love working for small businesses that are open and honest and are a joy to work at. I don’t think the government needs to spend money but they need to cut spending in all areas, we also need to raise taxes to start paying down debt. The government is irresponsible when it comes to money
 

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