what determines whether a person goes to heaven or not?

[hobelim]

Since heaven has NEVER been proven to exist, I'd say nothing.
Anyways, it's a stupid concept to think of a deity who'll send you to burn for eternity because you didn't idolize it enough. Laughable really.

Try to think of it like this;
Lets say that you had a friend who was involved in self destructive thinking and behavior and you told them that if they didn't stop and get their act together they would end up either dead or in jail.

If they did not listen and ended up dead or in jail would it be because you were punishing them?


In the same way the laws of God are a light, a clear instruction on how to experience the fullest potential of human life.

Those who conform to the laws demands enter the kingdom of heaven, a realm of conscious existence where God dwells that is defined by the boundaries of thought and behavior set forth in the law.

Those who do not, suffer the consequences of their own actions. Not as a punishment from God but a result of cause and effect.

If you fill your mind with irrational nonsense you will become confused and say and do stupid things bringing great evil upon yourself and others.

The consequent realm of confusion for setting aside this command is death and hell, a figurative place of real torment and confusion that many people here are actually in now, not as a future punishment but as a current consequence of their own actions..

Entering heaven is as easy or as difficult as it is for a person to be honest enough to purify their own minds and become refined.

But since god made everything, he's going to allow me to burn in hell because I didn't follow his laws that he never told me about? That's stupid.
Btw, if that IS the case, then there must be no one in heaven.

Yeah right, like you never heard about any laws from God.

Blaming a God you do not believe in for your own failure to act on information that everyone else on earth has been made aware of by claiming you have not been made aware is what is stupid, stupid.

 

[hobelim]

Try to think of it like this;
Lets say that you had a friend who was involved in self destructive thinking and behavior and you told them that if they didn't stop and get their act together they would end up either dead or in jail.

If they did not listen and ended up dead or in jail would it be because you were punishing them?


In the same way the laws of God are a light, a clear instruction on how to experience the fullest potential of human life.

Those who conform to the laws demands enter the kingdom of heaven, a realm of conscious existence where God dwells that is defined by the boundaries of thought and behavior set forth in the law.

Those who do not, suffer the consequences of their own actions. Not as a punishment from God but a result of cause and effect.

If you fill your mind with irrational nonsense you will become confused and say and do stupid things bringing great evil upon yourself and others.

The consequent realm of confusion for setting aside this command is death and hell, a figurative place of real torment and confusion that many people here are actually in now, not as a future punishment but as a current consequence of their own actions..

Entering heaven is as easy or as difficult as it is for a person to be honest enough to purify their own minds and become refined.

But since god made everything, he's going to allow me to burn in hell because I didn't follow his laws that he never told me about? That's stupid.
Btw, if that IS the case, then there must be no one in heaven.

It's not following the law that saves a person because everyone violates the law. That's why we have an Atonement.

NONSENSE!


Sin is disobedience to the law.

The only way to atone for sin is to stop sinning by conforming to the commands of God according to the teaching and example of Jesus..

There is no other way to the eternal life promised for obedience to the law.

"A child of God does not commit sin, because the divine seed remains in him; he cannot be a sinner, because he is Gods child." 1 John 3:4-10

 

[hobelim]

Try to think of it like this;
Lets say that you had a friend who was involved in self destructive thinking and behavior and you told them that if they didn't stop and get their act together they would end up either dead or in jail.

If they did not listen and ended up dead or in jail would it be because you were punishing them?


In the same way the laws of God are a light, a clear instruction on how to experience the fullest potential of human life.

Those who conform to the laws demands enter the kingdom of heaven, a realm of conscious existence where God dwells that is defined by the boundaries of thought and behavior set forth in the law.

Those who do not, suffer the consequences of their own actions. Not as a punishment from God but a result of cause and effect.

If you fill your mind with irrational nonsense you will become confused and say and do stupid things bringing great evil upon yourself and others.

The consequent realm of confusion for setting aside this command is death and hell, a figurative place of real torment and confusion that many people here are actually in now, not as a future punishment but as a current consequence of their own actions..

Entering heaven is as easy or as difficult as it is for a person to be honest enough to purify their own minds and become refined.

But since god made everything, he's going to allow me to burn in hell because I didn't follow his laws that he never told me about? That's stupid.
Btw, if that IS the case, then there must be no one in heaven.

Makes sense. They don't want the real heaven cluttered up with all of the riff-raff. So they probably have a timeshare "heaven-lite" with casinos and floor shows and Jesus shows up for special occasions and sings "I was born under a wandering star".

If you are not already aware of the distinction between the world of higher intelligences and the world of low lifes you may not be as bright as like to imagine.

Your confusion and ignorance is a dead giveaway about which world you belong to.

 

[Chuckt]

But since god made everything, he's going to allow me to burn in hell because I didn't follow his laws that he never told me about? That's stupid.
Btw, if that IS the case, then there must be no one in heaven.

It's not following the law that saves a person because everyone violates the law. That's why we have an Atonement.

NONSENSE!


Sin is disobedience to the law.

The only way to atone for sin is to stop sinning by conforming to the commands of God according to the teaching and example of Jesus..

There is no other way to the eternal life promised for obedience to the law.

"A child of God does not commit sin, because the divine seed remains in him; he cannot be a sinner, because he is Gods child." 1 John 3:4-10

Hobelin,

1 John 3:4-10 is actually continual in the greek so the idea is that people who continue to habitually sin do so because God isn't part of the equation as in the person is not afraid of what God thinks.

You're using a translation that isn't common either.

Chuck

 

[hobelim]

It's not following the law that saves a person because everyone violates the law. That's why we have an Atonement.

NONSENSE!


Sin is disobedience to the law.

The only way to atone for sin is to stop sinning by conforming to the commands of God according to the teaching and example of Jesus..

There is no other way to the eternal life promised for obedience to the law.

"A child of God does not commit sin, because the divine seed remains in him; he cannot be a sinner, because he is Gods child." 1 John 3:4-10

Hobelim,

1 John 3:4-10 is actually continual in the greek so the idea is that people who continue to habitually sin do so because God isn't part of the equation as in the person is not afraid of what God thinks.

You're using a translation that isn't common either.

Chuck

Thanks Chuck


The way I read the passage in every translation is that the sinner has not seen and does not know Jesus who came to do away with sin and in whom there is no sin.

Thats why anyone who claims to know and love Jesus yet continues to sin has either been deceived or is a deceiver.

Jesus taught the right way to interpret and conform to the divine commands that leads to the fulfillment of the life promised for compliance. Those who know Jesus accept his teaching and follow his example, eat his flesh and drink his blood, and as a result are freed from sin and the burden to suffer the consequent death.

Talk about forgiveness, repentance, salvation, and heaven all you want but if you worship a trinity you are a sinner who has not seen and does not know Jesus.

If Irish ram really believed in the mercy and forgiveness of God she would repent for preaching rebellion against his commands and acting like that is salvation or that it isn't dead wrong.

I say put your money where you mouth is or shut up already.....




btw, I use the New English Bible, oxford university press. I find it much more intelligible than many more common translations.

 

[Chuckt]

Hobelin,

I know what the word says and I'm not here to fight anyone. The way I see it is that I don't have time and I'm only here to really answer questions.

I've studied the word enough to know what it means which is why I can give a quick answer most of the time but none of the churches or commentaries I know would teach what you are teaching and I think most people know that.

Some people were using phrases as to what salvation means too but I believe there is enough repentance in the word "believe" because of 1Thessalonians 1:9 where they turned from idols to serve the living God and the example is that you can't turn to God unless your heart turns from something which is repentence and when I put my faith and trust in Christ, there is enough saving power in the savior to save me.

I read that from 'Doctrine for Difficult Days' by Dr. J Vernon McGee.

Chuck

 

[ABikerSailor]

But since god made everything, he's going to allow me to burn in hell because I didn't follow his laws that he never told me about? That's stupid.
Btw, if that IS the case, then there must be no one in heaven.

It's not following the law that saves a person because everyone violates the law. That's why we have an Atonement.

NONSENSE!


Sin is disobedience to the law.

The only way to atone for sin is to stop sinning by conforming to the commands of God according to the teaching and example of Jesus..

There is no other way to the eternal life promised for obedience to the law.

"A child of God does not commit sin, because the divine seed remains in him; he cannot be a sinner, because he is Gods child." 1 John 3:4-10

True..............but the problem is, over the years people of various denominations and faiths have put their own little spin on what sin is, and they've expanded it to cover almost everything.

The only Laws that God put down are either the 7 Noahide Commandments, or the 10 Commandments.

Everything else? Bad behavior that lots of folks were in a hurry to classify as "sins", because they didn't like the behavior.

Is drinking a sin? No. It is not. Matter of fact, there's a place in Psalms where it states directly that "wine was a gift from God to gladden the hearts of man". Matter of fact, one of the first things that Noah did when the Ark landed was plant grapes so that he could make wine. However...................in the Song of Solomon, there are a couple of passages where it comments that stupid drunk isn't a good thing, because it states that "a drunkard in their cups (meaning hammered) is an unlovely creature, and it goes on to warn you why it's such a bad thing.

Is cussing a sin? No. It is not either. The only thing you're supposed to be careful of with your language is to not take the name of God in vain. All other language is pretty much fair game.

Is sex before marriage a sin? No. Why? Because God said "thou shalt not commit adultery", which means that if you're in a relationship with one person, you should not take the love that person is giving you and give it to someone else that isn't them.

Most of the "sins" people talk about nowadays are actually vices, which is something that if you do it enough, it can cause you to sin eventually.

 

[The Irish Ram]

If a god did exist, then even a pea brain like me could tell. Or are you saying that the mentally retarded can't get into heaven because they can't understand the concept of god?.

The innocent who are incapable of understanding the law are not punished by the law. The Atonement covers those who are innocent. Just not those who are willfully ignorant unless they repent.

There was a Hell's Angels guy who got shot a few year ago and was buried in a church. So the reporter asked the priest: how come he's allowed to be buried in a church? He led a life of crime, murder and drugs? The priest replied: who knows, maybe he repented a split second before he died.
So I'm thinking, that's what I'll do just to be sure, as you folks would say.

In that case, here's hoping you see the bullet coming.........

 

[Derideo_Te]

But since god made everything, he's going to allow me to burn in hell because I didn't follow his laws that he never told me about? That's stupid.
Btw, if that IS the case, then there must be no one in heaven.

Makes sense. They don't want the real heaven cluttered up with all of the riff-raff. So they probably have a timeshare "heaven-lite" with casinos and floor shows and Jesus shows up for special occasions and sings "I was born under a wandering star".

If you are not already aware of the distinction between the world of higher intelligences and the world of low lifes you may not be as bright as like to imagine.

Your confusion and ignorance is a dead giveaway about which world you belong to.

Ironic!

 

[Bumberclyde]

Try to think of it like this;
Lets say that you had a friend who was involved in self destructive thinking and behavior and you told them that if they didn't stop and get their act together they would end up either dead or in jail.

If they did not listen and ended up dead or in jail would it be because you were punishing them?


In the same way the laws of God are a light, a clear instruction on how to experience the fullest potential of human life.

Those who conform to the laws demands enter the kingdom of heaven, a realm of conscious existence where God dwells that is defined by the boundaries of thought and behavior set forth in the law.

Those who do not, suffer the consequences of their own actions. Not as a punishment from God but a result of cause and effect.

If you fill your mind with irrational nonsense you will become confused and say and do stupid things bringing great evil upon yourself and others.

The consequent realm of confusion for setting aside this command is death and hell, a figurative place of real torment and confusion that many people here are actually in now, not as a future punishment but as a current consequence of their own actions..

Entering heaven is as easy or as difficult as it is for a person to be honest enough to purify their own minds and become refined.

But since god made everything, he's going to allow me to burn in hell because I didn't follow his laws that he never told me about? That's stupid.
Btw, if that IS the case, then there must be no one in heaven.

Yeah right, like you never heard about any laws from God.

Blaming a God you do not believe in for your own failure to act on information that everyone else on earth has been made aware of by claiming you have not been made aware is what is stupid, stupid.

I've never heard god say ANYTHING, to me or otherwise. You're talking about a man-written book. That's total gibberish.

 

[Bumberclyde]

The innocent who are incapable of understanding the law are not punished by the law. The Atonement covers those who are innocent. Just not those who are willfully ignorant unless they repent.

There was a Hell's Angels guy who got shot a few year ago and was buried in a church. So the reporter asked the priest: how come he's allowed to be buried in a church? He led a life of crime, murder and drugs? The priest replied: who knows, maybe he repented a split second before he died.
So I'm thinking, that's what I'll do just to be sure, as you folks would say.

In that case, here's hoping you see the bullet coming.........

Your god knows what I mean and when I mean to say it. That should be enough, otherwise, your god is a douchesack.

 

[rightwinger]

Getting into heaven is quite simple

God monitors this board on a regular basis. He even posts occaisionally. He evaluates whether you belong in heaven by how you respond to his posts

There are a lot of people on this board who are not going to heaven

 

[hobelim]

If a god did exist, then even a pea brain like me could tell. Or are you saying that the mentally retarded can't get into heaven because they can't understand the concept of god?.

The innocent who are incapable of understanding the law are not punished by the law. The Atonement covers those who are innocent. Just not those who are willfully ignorant unless they repent.

exactly.

"If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin, but because you say, "WE see" your guilt remains."

 

[hobelim]

Hobelin,

I know what the word says and I'm not here to fight anyone. The way I see it is that I don't have time and I'm only here to really answer questions.

I've studied the word enough to know what it means which is why I can give a quick answer most of the time but none of the churches or commentaries I know would teach what you are teaching and I think most people know that.

Some people were using phrases as to what salvation means too but I believe there is enough repentance in the word "believe" because of 1Thessalonians 1:9 where they turned from idols to serve the living God and the example is that you can't turn to God unless your heart turns from something which is repentence and when I put my faith and trust in Christ, there is enough saving power in the savior to save me.

I read that from 'Doctrine for Difficult Days' by Dr. J Vernon McGee.

Chuck

Thats terrific. But if you do not realize that by saying to eat his flesh Jesus was teaching something essential to your eternal condition pertaining specifically to kosher law you probably should take a minute out of your busy schedule to take another harder look at everything that you claim to believe if you give a shit.

What good does it do to say that you believe in Jesus if you do not understand what he meant and as a consequence never do what he taught was the only way to eternal life?

 

[hobelim]

It's not following the law that saves a person because everyone violates the law. That's why we have an Atonement.

NONSENSE!


Sin is disobedience to the law.

The only way to atone for sin is to stop sinning by conforming to the commands of God according to the teaching and example of Jesus..

There is no other way to the eternal life promised for obedience to the law.

"A child of God does not commit sin, because the divine seed remains in him; he cannot be a sinner, because he is Gods child." 1 John 3:4-10

True..............but the problem is, over the years people of various denominations and faiths have put their own little spin on what sin is, and they've expanded it to cover almost everything.

The only Laws that God put down are either the 7 Noahide Commandments, or the 10 Commandments.

Everything else? Bad behavior that lots of folks were in a hurry to classify as "sins", because they didn't like the behavior.

Is drinking a sin? No. It is not. Matter of fact, there's a place in Psalms where it states directly that "wine was a gift from God to gladden the hearts of man". Matter of fact, one of the first things that Noah did when the Ark landed was plant grapes so that he could make wine. However...................in the Song of Solomon, there are a couple of passages where it comments that stupid drunk isn't a good thing, because it states that "a drunkard in their cups (meaning hammered) is an unlovely creature, and it goes on to warn you why it's such a bad thing.

Is cussing a sin? No. It is not either. The only thing you're supposed to be careful of with your language is to not take the name of God in vain. All other language is pretty much fair game.

Is sex before marriage a sin? No. Why? Because God said "thou shalt not commit adultery", which means that if you're in a relationship with one person, you should not take the love that person is giving you and give it to someone else that isn't them.

Most of the "sins" people talk about nowadays are actually vices, which is something that if you do it enough, it can cause you to sin eventually.

I think you are right on to say that people do not even know what qualifies as sin in the eyes of God.

They do not realize by insisting that the concerns of God are about what you eat or what you wear or the individual sexual preferences of human beings they ascribe to God the emotional maturity of a prepubescent child and the morals of capricious and petty tyrant.

 

[hobelim]

But since god made everything, he's going to allow me to burn in hell because I didn't follow his laws that he never told me about? That's stupid.
Btw, if that IS the case, then there must be no one in heaven.

Yeah right, like you never heard about any laws from God.

Blaming a God you do not believe in for your own failure to act on information that everyone else on earth has been made aware of by claiming you have not been made aware is what is stupid, stupid.

I've never heard god say ANYTHING, to me or otherwise. You're talking about a man-written book. That's total gibberish.

No big deal. Most 'believers' have never heard a single word from God in their entire lives either. They are just pretending and hoping.

Thats really not so terrible but if God is God, you would get into heaven ahead of all of them.

At least you are honest.

 

[koshergrl]

Naw, rejection of God is the one way to guarantee the gates of heaven are locked against you.

 

[Bumberclyde]

Naw, rejection of God is the one way to guarantee the gates of heaven are locked against you.

Personally, I don't reject god, I'm an agnostic: I don't see any real proof either way for or against a god. But if I ever do see some real proof either way, I'm open to changing my mind. Can't be any fairer than that.

 

[koshergrl]

Your perception of "fair" doesn't matter. If you reject Christ, you're doomed. Hopefully you accept him, and attain heaven. Your 'proof" requirement is a challenge that won't be accepted, and is a sign of arrogance and willfulness that God does not tolerate well. Your proof will probably come on the day you're throw into the pit, and of course by then it will be too late for you to come to Christ. On that day, everyone will believe...but those who rejected him, denied his son, and jeered at Christians will not get yet another chance.

 

[rightwinger]

Naw, rejection of God is the one way to guarantee the gates of heaven are locked against you.

Which god?