What did our founders really mean when they said “general welfare”?

[BrokeLoser]

As definitions change over time, it's good to find something that gives as close as possible original meaning.

Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary comes close and here is what is listed as the definition for "WELFARE"

WEL'FARE, noun [well and fare, a good faring; G.]

1. Exemption from misfortune, sickness, calamity or evil; the enjoyment of health and the common blessings of life; prosperity; happiness; applied to persons.

2. Exemption from any unusual evil or calamity; the enjoyment of peace and prosperity, or the ordinary blessings of society and civil government; applied to states.

on-line source: Websters Dictionary 1828 - American Dictionary of the English Language

*
* screenshot of my copy of Webster's 1828 Dictionary

The confusion lies with the word "GENERAL"...LefTarded beggars like to write their own definition of the word.

 

[Alan Stallion]

Somebody by the name of Alan Chapman posted this back in 2001, which encouraged me to acquire an old-school dictionary.

I finally found his original post via the Wayback Machine (web.archive.org). (Note: FR refers to the political website FreeRepublic.com)...

*****
There seems to be some disagreement as to what the word "welfare" means with regard to the phrase "general welfare" as it appears in the Constitution. Many on FR use the "general welfare" clause as the basis of their support for government schools and Social Security. I started this thread with the intent to discover the true meaning of the term "welfare" with regard to it's use in the Constitution.

The word "welfare" appears twice in the Constitution. Once in the preamble and again in Article 1, Section 8.

The preamble to the Constitution states:
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

The preamble is not a delegation of power to the federal government. It is simply a stated purpose.

Article 1, Section 8 states:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

We all know the meaning of words can change over time. In order to more accurately assess the meaning of the word "welfare", with respect to it's use in the Constitution, I consulted a source from that period. I happened to own a reprint of the 1828 edition of Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language. Here is how the word "welfare" was defined 40 years after it was written in the Constitution.

A clear distinction is made with respect to welfare as applied to persons and states. In the Constitution the word "welfare" is used in the context of states and not persons. The "welfare of the United States" is not congruous with the welfare of individuals, people, or citizens.

Furthermore, Article 4, Section 4 states:
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

A Republican form of government is one that is not Democratic. This means that policy cannot be decided based on majority rule. It is impossible to guarantee a Republican form of government and, at the same time, compel people to fund and participate in government programs which are not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.

I came across a very interesting letter on FR. It was written by James Madison in 1817. Madison is considered by many to be the father of the Constitution. In it he discusses the proper role of the federal government and the limits placed on it by the Constitution.

Veto of federal public works bill
March 3, 1817
To the House of Representatives of the United States: Having considered the bill this day presented to me entitled "An act to set apart and pledge certain funds for internal improvements," and which sets apart and pledges funds "for constructing roads and canals, and improving the navigation of water courses, in order to facilitate, promote, and give security to internal commerce among the several States, and to render more easy and less expensive the means and provisions for the common defense," I am constrained by the insuperable difficulty I feel in reconciling the bill with the Constitution of the United States to return it with that objection to the House of Representatives, in which it originated.

The legislative powers vested in Congress are specified and enumerated in the eighth section of the first article of the Constitution, and it does not appear that the power proposed to be exercised by the bill is among the enumerated powers, or that it falls by any just interpretation with the power to make laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution those or other powers vested by the Constitution in the Government of the United States.

"The power to regulate commerce among the several States" can not include a power to construct roads and canals, and to improve the navigation of water courses in order to facilitate, promote, and secure such commerce with a latitude of construction departing from the ordinary import of the terms strengthened by the known inconveniences which doubtless led to the grant of this remedial power to Congress.

To refer the power in question to the clause "to provide for common defense and general welfare" would be contrary to the established and consistent rules of interpretation, as rendering the special and careful enumeration of powers which follow the clause nugatory and improper. Such a view of the Constitution would have the effect of giving to Congress a general power of legislation instead of the defined and limited one hitherto understood to belong to them, the terms "common defense and general welfare" embracing every object and act within the purview of a legislative trust. It would have the effect of subjecting both the Constitution and laws of the several States in all cases not specifically exempted to be superseded by laws of Congress, it being expressly declared "that the Constitution of the United States and laws made in pursuance thereof shall be the supreme law of the land, and the judges of every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding." Such a view of the Constitution, finally, would have the effect of excluding the judicial authority of the United States from its participation in guarding the boundary between the legislative powers of the General and the State Governments, inasmuch as questions relating to the general welfare, being questions of policy and expediency, are unsusceptible of judicial cognizance and decision.

A restriction of the power "to provide for the common defense and general welfare" to cases which are to be provided for by the expenditure of money would still leave within the legislative power of Congress all the great and most important measures of Government, money being the ordinary and necessary means of carrying them into execution.

If a general power to construct roads and canals, and to improve the navigation of water courses, with the train of powers incident thereto, be not possessed by Congress, the assent of the States in the mode provided in the bill can not confer the power. The only cases in which the consent and cession of particular States can extend the power of Congress are those specified and provided for in the Constitution.

I am not unaware of the great importance of roads and canals and the improved navigation of water courses, and that a power in the National Legislature to provide for them might be exercised with signal advantage to the general prosperity. But seeing that such a power is not expressly given by the Constitution, and believing that it can not be deduced from any part of it without an inadmissible latitude of construction and reliance on insufficient precedents; believing also that the permanent success of the Constitution depends on a definite partition of powers between the General and the State Governments, and that no adequate landmarks would be left by the constructive extension of the powers of Congress as proposed in the bill, I have no option but to withhold my signature from it, and to cherishing the hope that its beneficial objects may be attained by a resort for the necessary powers to the same wisdom and virtue in the nation which established the Constitution in its actual form and providently marked out in the instrument itself a safe and practicable mode of improving it as experience might suggest.

James Madison,
President of the United States

It appears that, contrary to the claims by many on FR, Congress does not have broad and sweeping powers. Nor was it the intention of the founders to give Congress any.

Other quotes regarding this issue are as follows:

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, Letter to Edmund Pendleton, January 21, 1792 _Madison_ 1865, I, page 546

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." - James Madison, regarding an appropriations bill for French refugees, 1794

"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." - James Madison, Letter to James Robertson, April 20, 1831 _Madison_ 1865, IV, pages 171-172

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." - Thomas Jefferson

So, what do you all think?

Published: Wednesday, March 7, 2001 Author: Alan Chapman

 

[rightwinger]

Of course it is right

Let Congress do its job

NO. Not if you're defining their job outside Constitutional limits. In that case, I have an obligation to prevent Congress from doing "its job".

If you believe Congress is acting outside it’s Constitutional limits.....take them to court

The Constitution allows you to do that

And if the Court fails (which it has) to hold Congress to its prescribed limits - all bets are off. It no longer has a valid claim of sovereignty, regardless of the what the majority thinks.

The Court has been consistent in its interpretation.


The Court does not support you, neither does Congress, the people or the states

I know that. Which is why I don't support them. When the government goes rogue, it's no longer valid.

200 plus years of “rogue”?

 

[rightwinger]

On the last day of his administration, Madison vetoed "infrastructure bill" that called for federal construction of various roads, bridges, and canals throughout the country.

In his Letter to Congress he said: "“The legislative powers vested in Congress are specified and enumerated in the eighth section of the first article of the Constitution, and it does not appear that the power proposed to be exercised by the bill is among the enumerated powers.”

James Madison (one of my favorite founders) was right to question spending on roads, bridges, etc, and at the time, he would have been right in his decision, but wrong if that decision was made today. Roads are necessary for common defense (an enumerated power). A federal highway system supports national defense (getting troops and equipment to the battlefield). Surely, you cannot deny that.

.

Roads benefit the general welfare of the people

To provide general welfare, it must be within the enumerated powers.
You statists want it to mean unlimited powers.
But that is because you are stupid and weak.

LOL
It has NEVER meant that

Try, although I know it is extremely hard for you, to consider the logic.
Why would they even make a constitution that constrains the fed gov when they also gave them unlimited powers?
THINK and READ

Not unlimited
We have courts to determine what that limitation should be

Try to use them

 

[TNHarley]

James Madison (one of my favorite founders) was right to question spending on roads, bridges, etc, and at the time, he would have been right in his decision, but wrong if that decision was made today. Roads are necessary for common defense (an enumerated power). A federal highway system supports national defense (getting troops and equipment to the battlefield). Surely, you cannot deny that.

.

Roads benefit the general welfare of the people

To provide general welfare, it must be within the enumerated powers.
You statists want it to mean unlimited powers.
But that is because you are stupid and weak.

LOL
It has NEVER meant that

Try, although I know it is extremely hard for you, to consider the logic.
Why would they even make a constitution that constrains the fed gov when they also gave them unlimited powers?
THINK and READ

Not unlimited
We have courts to determine what that limitation should be

Try to use them

The courts dont make law or amendments.
Pass an amendment

 

[Ame®icano]

General vs. Specific

General: Military Defense

Specific: Taking money from Barney Fife and using it buy Aunt Bee a firearm.


General: Interstate Highway System
(also common defense as military needs roads to respond to threats)

Specific: Taking money from Barney Fife and using it buy Aunt Bee a car.

.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States".

Congress has the authority to tax and spend for the general welfare, but the enumerated powers limit the federal government’s spending power to specific objects listed in Article I, Section 8.

Exactly.

.

On the last day of his administration, Madison vetoed "infrastructure bill" that called for federal construction of various roads, bridges, and canals throughout the country.

In his Letter to Congress he said: "“The legislative powers vested in Congress are specified and enumerated in the eighth section of the first article of the Constitution, and it does not appear that the power proposed to be exercised by the bill is among the enumerated powers.”

James Madison (one of my favorite founders) was right to question spending on roads, bridges, etc, and at the time, he would have been right in his decision, but wrong if that decision was made today. Roads are necessary for common defense (an enumerated power). A federal highway system supports national defense (getting troops and equipment to the battlefield). Surely, you cannot deny that.

.

Actually, I'm on the opposite side of that. Back then, we were under greater threat of foreign invasion than we are today. British were still superpower, so were Spain and France.

We have bases all over the country, with most powerful military in existence. Yes, roads are important, but are not crucial for bringing troops to battlefield, since chances of being attacked (conventionally) here at home are slim to none.

 

[Ame®icano]

General vs. Specific

General: Military Defense

Specific: Taking money from Barney Fife and using it buy Aunt Bee a firearm.


General: Interstate Highway System
(also common defense as military needs roads to respond to threats)

Specific: Taking money from Barney Fife and using it buy Aunt Bee a car.

.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States".

Congress has the authority to tax and spend for the general welfare, but the enumerated powers limit the federal government’s spending power to specific objects listed in Article I, Section 8.

Exactly.

.

On the last day of his administration, Madison vetoed "infrastructure bill" that called for federal construction of various roads, bridges, and canals throughout the country.

In his Letter to Congress he said: "“The legislative powers vested in Congress are specified and enumerated in the eighth section of the first article of the Constitution, and it does not appear that the power proposed to be exercised by the bill is among the enumerated powers.”

Now we see why it was his last day.

If that is what you see, than you're probably shortsighted, possibly blind, but most likely stupid.

It was his last day of presidency regardless of veto.

 

[Ame®icano]

Welfare is unconstitutional

Explain.

What do you think the framers meant when they said “GENERAL WELFARE”?
What do you think the definition of “GENERAL” is?

Our welfare clause is General and must cover any contingency.

General does not mean specific. The fed gov is charged with promoting an environment that permits the general welfare to function as it applies to the whole country, not as an ATM for illegally protected groups or individuals.

General means general
Congress is tasked to do what is best for the people.
Doesn’t mean everyone has to benefit equally......just the nation as a whole benefits

Yes, they're tasked within boundaries set by Article I, Section 8. The 9th Amendment is preventing them from inventing new powers for themselves. Anything outside of their enumerated powers is left to the States, or to the people.

 

[Ame®icano]

If you voted for Trump there’s a good chance you’re a lot like me with regard to why....I voted for him on two policies almost exclusively...First and foremost on how he would deal with illegal Mexicans and the border and second on how he would yank lowlifes off the Democrat induced welfare plantation.
Anyhoo, as we approach the point where welfare reform will be visited I ask for your opinions on EXACTLY what you think our founders meant when they used the phrase “GENERAL WELFARE” in the constitution?

Attention all Smartest Guys In The Room, and legal scholars:
Please spare us the case citations such as the U.S. vs Butler case and the like. I’m interested in YOUR opinions.

"General Welfare" means anything Dimsocialists want but are too lazy or stupid to get for themselves. So, pretty much anything.

If I agreed with you, we would both be wrong

You keep repeating the sentence I used on you so many times.

Problem is, he's right.

 

[Ame®icano]

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States".

Congress has the authority to tax and spend for the general welfare, but the enumerated powers limit the federal government’s spending power to specific objects listed in Article I, Section 8.

Exactly.

.

On the last day of his administration, Madison vetoed "infrastructure bill" that called for federal construction of various roads, bridges, and canals throughout the country.

In his Letter to Congress he said: "“The legislative powers vested in Congress are specified and enumerated in the eighth section of the first article of the Constitution, and it does not appear that the power proposed to be exercised by the bill is among the enumerated powers.”

James Madison (one of my favorite founders) was right to question spending on roads, bridges, etc, and at the time, he would have been right in his decision, but wrong if that decision was made today. Roads are necessary for common defense (an enumerated power). A federal highway system supports national defense (getting troops and equipment to the battlefield). Surely, you cannot deny that.

.

Roads benefit the general welfare of the people

To provide general welfare, it must be within the enumerated powers.
You statists want it to mean unlimited powers.
But that is because you are stupid and weak.

"To provide for general welfare" meaning is providing for the welfare of general public, country as whole, within enumerated powers.

If lefties are right when they said that government can do whatever they want if is for "general welfare", why do we have enumerated powers at all?

When founders listed those enumerated or specific powers, they did it for a reason to exclude all powers not listed. Therefore 9th and 10th Amendments that explain who got powers that are not enumerated to federal government. Therefore, general welfare clause is not granting any power to the government, it's referring to the jurisdiction where they are allowed to use their enumerated powers.

 

[Ame®icano]

James Madison (one of my favorite founders) was right to question spending on roads, bridges, etc, and at the time, he would have been right in his decision, but wrong if that decision was made today. Roads are necessary for common defense (an enumerated power). A federal highway system supports national defense (getting troops and equipment to the battlefield). Surely, you cannot deny that.

.

Roads benefit the general welfare of the people

To provide general welfare, it must be within the enumerated powers.
You statists want it to mean unlimited powers.
But that is because you are stupid and weak.

LOL
It has NEVER meant that

Try, although I know it is extremely hard for you, to consider the logic.
Why would they even make a constitution that constrains the fed gov when they also gave them unlimited powers?
THINK and READ

Not unlimited
We have courts to determine what that limitation should be

Try to use them

Article I, Section 8 is the limitation.

 

[Ame®icano]

On the last day of his administration, Madison vetoed "infrastructure bill" that called for federal construction of various roads, bridges, and canals throughout the country.

In his Letter to Congress he said: "“The legislative powers vested in Congress are specified and enumerated in the eighth section of the first article of the Constitution, and it does not appear that the power proposed to be exercised by the bill is among the enumerated powers.”

James Madison (one of my favorite founders) was right to question spending on roads, bridges, etc, and at the time, he would have been right in his decision, but wrong if that decision was made today. Roads are necessary for common defense (an enumerated power). A federal highway system supports national defense (getting troops and equipment to the battlefield). Surely, you cannot deny that.

.

Roads benefit the general welfare of the people

To provide general welfare, it must be within the enumerated powers.
You statists want it to mean unlimited powers.
But that is because you are stupid and weak.

LOL
It has NEVER meant that

Try, although I know it is extremely hard for you, to consider the logic.
Why would they even make a constitution that constrains the fed gov when they also gave them unlimited powers?
THINK and READ

They see "general welfare" clause as "government has any power they could think of".

If so, why articles? Why Bill of Rights? Why not "Congress - just do it".

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

200 plus years of “rogue”?

What are you talking about?

Thomas Jefferson said governments ALWAYS go rogue. Just because you old fucker have been too lazy and gutless does not mean we must accept improper government action.

It is pointless talking to you morons because you don't understand the concept of limited government.

We just need to start getting rid of commies.

.

 

[Chuz Life]

I don't have the time to read 55 pages of posts on this. I'm surprised the discussion is centered on the meaning or definition of the "general welfare" and not on the context in which it was referred to.

Specifically, the difference between "promoting" the General Welfare as opposed to "providing" the General Welfare.

If someone else already made that point?

Cool.

 

[there4eyeM]

General vs. Specific

General: Military Defense

Specific: Taking money from Barney Fife and using it buy Aunt Bee a firearm.


General: Interstate Highway System
(also common defense as military needs roads to respond to threats)

Specific: Taking money from Barney Fife and using it buy Aunt Bee a car.

.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States".

Congress has the authority to tax and spend for the general welfare, but the enumerated powers limit the federal government’s spending power to specific objects listed in Article I, Section 8.

Exactly.

.

On the last day of his administration, Madison vetoed "infrastructure bill" that called for federal construction of various roads, bridges, and canals throughout the country.

In his Letter to Congress he said: "“The legislative powers vested in Congress are specified and enumerated in the eighth section of the first article of the Constitution, and it does not appear that the power proposed to be exercised by the bill is among the enumerated powers.”

Now we see why it was his last day.

If that is what you see, than you're probably shortsighted, possibly blind, but most likely stupid.

It was his last day of presidency regardless of veto.

General vs. Specific

General: Military Defense

Specific: Taking money from Barney Fife and using it buy Aunt Bee a firearm.


General: Interstate Highway System
(also common defense as military needs roads to respond to threats)

Specific: Taking money from Barney Fife and using it buy Aunt Bee a car.

.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States".

Congress has the authority to tax and spend for the general welfare, but the enumerated powers limit the federal government’s spending power to specific objects listed in Article I, Section 8.

Exactly.

.

On the last day of his administration, Madison vetoed "infrastructure bill" that called for federal construction of various roads, bridges, and canals throughout the country.

In his Letter to Congress he said: "“The legislative powers vested in Congress are specified and enumerated in the eighth section of the first article of the Constitution, and it does not appear that the power proposed to be exercised by the bill is among the enumerated powers.”

Now we see why it was his last day.

If that is what you see, than you're probably shortsighted, possibly blind, but most likely stupid.

It was his last day of presidency regardless of veto.

There is another option that escaped your narrow thinking, but you are likely immune.
It is called "humor".

 

[there4eyeM]

If we could imagine that those who established the U.S. government were intelligent, educated people, we would be able to reason that they understood the language they were using. They used specific words here and non-specific words there, depending upon how they saw how things might evolve/develop. "Promote" and "general" and "welfare" are terms quite open to various views. Unless they were short sighted, blind or stupid, they fully understood this.

 

[Mac1958]

If we could imagine that those who established the U.S. government were intelligent, educated people, we would be able to reason that they understood the language they were using. They used specific words here and non-specific words there, depending upon how they saw how things might evolve/develop. "Promote" and "general" and "welfare" are terms quite open to various views. Unless they were short sighted, blind or stupid, they fully understood this.

And, bingo.

The paranoids want to quibble over individual definitions of words. It's easier than doing the heavy lifting of changing hearts and minds, a struggle they are clearly losing.
.

 

[Ame®icano]

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States".

Congress has the authority to tax and spend for the general welfare, but the enumerated powers limit the federal government’s spending power to specific objects listed in Article I, Section 8.

Exactly.

.

On the last day of his administration, Madison vetoed "infrastructure bill" that called for federal construction of various roads, bridges, and canals throughout the country.

In his Letter to Congress he said: "“The legislative powers vested in Congress are specified and enumerated in the eighth section of the first article of the Constitution, and it does not appear that the power proposed to be exercised by the bill is among the enumerated powers.”

Now we see why it was his last day.

If that is what you see, than you're probably shortsighted, possibly blind, but most likely stupid.

It was his last day of presidency regardless of veto.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States".

Congress has the authority to tax and spend for the general welfare, but the enumerated powers limit the federal government’s spending power to specific objects listed in Article I, Section 8.

Exactly.

.

On the last day of his administration, Madison vetoed "infrastructure bill" that called for federal construction of various roads, bridges, and canals throughout the country.

In his Letter to Congress he said: "“The legislative powers vested in Congress are specified and enumerated in the eighth section of the first article of the Constitution, and it does not appear that the power proposed to be exercised by the bill is among the enumerated powers.”

Now we see why it was his last day.

If that is what you see, than you're probably shortsighted, possibly blind, but most likely stupid.

It was his last day of presidency regardless of veto.

There is another option that escaped your narrow thinking, but you are likely immune.
It is called "humor".

It didn't sounded like it. Sorry.

 

[rightwinger]

Roads benefit the general welfare of the people

To provide general welfare, it must be within the enumerated powers.
You statists want it to mean unlimited powers.
But that is because you are stupid and weak.

LOL
It has NEVER meant that

Try, although I know it is extremely hard for you, to consider the logic.
Why would they even make a constitution that constrains the fed gov when they also gave them unlimited powers?
THINK and READ

Not unlimited
We have courts to determine what that limitation should be

Try to use them

The courts dont make law or amendments.
Pass an amendment

The courts get to decide the interpretation of General Welfare......not internet posters

 

[rightwinger]

If we could imagine that those who established the U.S. government were intelligent, educated people, we would be able to reason that they understood the language they were using. They used specific words here and non-specific words there, depending upon how they saw how things might evolve/develop. "Promote" and "general" and "welfare" are terms quite open to various views. Unless they were short sighted, blind or stupid, they fully understood this.

The Constitution was not meant to be a cook book telling you what ingredients you are allowed to use.

They provided a broad framework of government and left it to future generations to decide what it wanted from that government.