An Honest Conversation about Race

[ClosedCaption]

Correction: That was Ernie S who has a problem with only the black caucus...no others, because...that's unfair

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Not only that but he keeps recycling the same ol arguments until he get caught then he changes the subject only for a page or two. Then when the coast is clear he reposts the same ol tripe.
He'll never be able to explain why only Minority hyphenated Americans irk him so...We know why but if he said it, he'd be exposed for what he is.
He'll never be able to explain why Minority caucus' irk him so...We know why but...same as above

I never made any comments about a "minority caucus".

So you need to figure out who your arguing with and why.

You're about as stupid as your buddy Poet and likely as dishonest.

You can go thru my entire history and wont find any dishonesty there. You didn't ask me a question you just laid out a bunch of bullshit and the only answer you will accept is one you already have in that head of yours.

So any answer I give, to you, will be an "apology". Funny thing about those words is you can slap "apologists" or "excuses" on the same boxes that someone else would put "explanation" or "reasons".

How do blacks WANT to be blacks?

Yes I did ask you a question and you dodged it.

You can use any word you want. Fact is you are "apologizing", "excusing" and or pointing the finger at another group instead of giving "reasons" and/or "explanations" why the black community is in such dire straits.

If you don't know why, then just say so and stop being so defensive.

The only way to solve the problems within the black community is to first acknowledge there is problems, explain why the problems exist (the root cause) and then help find solutions.

 

[ClosedCaption]

I never made any comments about a "minority caucus".

So you need to figure out who your arguing with and why.

You're about as stupid as your buddy Poet and likely as dishonest.

You can go thru my entire history and wont find any dishonesty there. You didn't ask me a question you just laid out a bunch of bullshit and the only answer you will accept is one you already have in that head of yours.

So any answer I give, to you, will be an "apology". Funny thing about those words is you can slap "apologists" or "excuses" on the same boxes that someone else would put "explanation" or "reasons".

How do blacks WANT to be blacks?

Yes I did ask you a question and you dodged it.

You can use any word you want. Fact is you are "apologizing", "excusing" and or pointing the finger at another group instead of giving "reasons" and/or "explanations" why the black community is in such dire straits.

If you don't know why, then just say so and stop being so defensive.

The only way to solve the problems within the black community is to first acknowledge there is problems, explain why the problems exist (the root cause) and then help find solutions.

I gave you this answer the first time: The way WE WANT TOO! Do you expect or want me to lay it out for all blacks? If so, I cant because we are not a monolithic group. But white ppl through sheer arrogance wants every other group to drop their traditions and assimilate...not other whites tho...They can have their St. Patricks Day's, Italian Language, Jewish Traditions all without a problem....but Blacks?!!? Oh hell no! That's uh...self segregation...The Jewish ppl got their OWN LAND but that's not divisive...no, whats divisive is Kwanzaa! Yeah!

There are a lot of reasons why the black community is in shambles...Too bad you don't want to hear any of them because in your head the "reasons" are "excuses". Everyone already acknowledges we have problems, good idea but its already been done. Now what?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

You can go thru my entire history and wont find any dishonesty there. You didn't ask me a question you just laid out a bunch of bullshit and the only answer you will accept is one you already have in that head of yours.

So any answer I give, to you, will be an "apology". Funny thing about those words is you can slap "apologists" or "excuses" on the same boxes that someone else would put "explanation" or "reasons".

How do blacks WANT to be blacks?

Yes I did ask you a question and you dodged it.

You can use any word you want. Fact is you are "apologizing", "excusing" and or pointing the finger at another group instead of giving "reasons" and/or "explanations" why the black community is in such dire straits.

If you don't know why, then just say so and stop being so defensive.

The only way to solve the problems within the black community is to first acknowledge there is problems, explain why the problems exist (the root cause) and then help find solutions.

I gave you this answer the first time: The way WE WANT TOO! Do you expect or want me to lay it out for all blacks? If so, I cant because we are not a monolithic group. But white ppl through sheer arrogance wants every other group to drop their traditions and assimilate...not other whites tho...They can have their St. Patricks Day's, Italian Language, Jewish Traditions all without a problem....but Blacks?!!? Oh hell no! That's uh...self segregation...The Jewish ppl got their OWN LAND but that's not divisive...no, whats divisive is Kwanzaa! Yeah!

There are a lot of reasons why the black community is in shambles...Too bad you don't want to hear any of them because in your head the "reasons" are "excuses". Everyone already acknowledges we have problems, good idea but its already been done. Now what?

The way we want too? That's your answer?

Yes as a matter of fact I do. I want you to explain what "the way we want too" bullshit answer means.

You stated blacks want to be blacks but now say that you're not a monolithic group. You had no trouble speaking for them before.

So why make a statement that you cannot support?

What traditions have blacks been asked to drop?

Now what?

Explain the reasons why the black community is in shambles, that's what.

Now I suppose in all your honesty, you'll dodge these questions as well.

Your turn.

 

[ClosedCaption]

The way we want too? That's your answer?

Yes

Yes as a matter of fact I do. I want you to explain what "the way we want too" bullshit answer means.

Cant because all blacks don't think alike but whatever we want to do (Like Kwanzaa, BET, Black History Month, Dress, Style, Wear African garb etc) white ppl complain like we did something to them.

You stated blacks want to be blacks but now say that you're not a monolithic group. You had no trouble speaking for them before.

Nope I didn't, and I don't have to be every black person to express myself, or do I?

So why make a statement that you cannot support?

What traditions have blacks been asked to drop?

I gave a short list above add to that "get over slavery"

Now what?

Explain the reasons why the black community is in shambles, that's what.

Now I suppose in all your honesty, you'll dodge these questions as well.

Your turn.

No I wont, but you've made it clear that any reasons I give you will promptly dismiss them as "excuses". Just to prove my point, you can blame the justice system for a lot of missing fathers in the home.

Selling cocaine carries a significantly shorter sentence than selling crack. Selling both drugs are wrong BUT where is crack typically and where is cocaine typically?

If you answer that truthfully you can see how unequal prison sentences might affect whites and blacks differently. Again both are bad and the law isn't targeting blacks per se...just so happens that crack is in the black areas more than the whites.

Funny how that just happens that way...right?

 

[Unkotare]

Very little in the way of honesty in this thread

Wow, thank goodness you stopped by to provide that report!

 

[Unkotare]

Send them swimming back to Africa with a Democrat under each arm???

Seriously, if "African Americans" would simply drop the "African" part and identify only as Americans, they would be well on their way to the equality King wanted.

Irish Americans, Italian Americans, Polish Americans, and Asian Americans, Hispanic Americans, Native Americans, and sentient Americans all disagree

Polish Americans ... They don't have magazines ...

What did you say? Sorry, I was busy reading:
PLUS Journal | Polish-American Affairs Magazine

 

[Unkotare]

Can you believe the government spending time and money focusing on this?

Polish American Congress Day

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The way we want too? That's your answer?

Yes

Yes as a matter of fact I do. I want you to explain what "the way we want too" bullshit answer means.

Cant because all blacks don't think alike but whatever we want to do (Like Kwanzaa, BET, Black History Month, Dress, Style, Wear African garb etc) white ppl complain like we did something to them.



Nope I didn't, and I don't have to be every black person to express myself, or do I?

So why make a statement that you cannot support?

What traditions have blacks been asked to drop?

I gave a short list above add to that "get over slavery"

Now what?

Explain the reasons why the black community is in shambles, that's what.

Now I suppose in all your honesty, you'll dodge these questions as well.

Your turn.

No I wont, but you've made it clear that any reasons I give you will promptly dismiss them as "excuses". Just to prove my point, you can blame the justice system for a lot of missing fathers in the home.

Selling cocaine carries a significantly shorter sentence than selling crack. Selling both drugs are wrong BUT where is crack typically and where is cocaine typically?

If you answer that truthfully you can see how unequal prison sentences might affect whites and blacks differently. Again both are bad and the law isn't targeting blacks per se...just so happens that crack is in the black areas more than the whites.

Funny how that just happens that way...right?

Ok. You don't want to have an honest discussion I get it.

But you did speak on behalf of blacks in post #182.

And your lame ass answers sums your argument up pretty well.

No traditions have been taken from you, you can't name any.

You can't explain your silly statement that blacks want to be blacks. Whatever the hell that supposed to mean anyways.

You say the Justice system is to blame for fatherless families, I suppose the justice system put the crack pipe in their hands also.

See you can't place the blame on where it needs to be. ON THE INDIVIDUAL. Crack is prevalent in the black communities and whose fault is that? The justice system? Whitey's?

Still trying to find a fall guy instead of placing the blame squarely where it belongs.

The biggest problem within the black community is accepting responsibility for their own actions.

Until they come to terms who is REALLY at fault they are destined to stay right where their at.

It's pitiful.

 

[Unkotare]

Hey, who wants to go out to the club tonight?


Welcome to the Polish American Citizens Club of Albany, New York

 

[Unkotare]

Hey, public television is supported in part by taxpayer money, right?


The Polish Americans | WLIW21 Productions

 

[Unkotare]

There goes more government time and resources:

Congressman Dan Lipinski : Press Releases : Rep. Lipinski Pays Tribute to Casimir Pulaski, Polish Hero of American Revolution


Sheesh, these people want so much attention! If only other groups could...but no, that's just a pipe dream...

 

[Unkotare]

There is no need. The "white" Republican Congress is a caucus, unto itself.

Got a link to this supposed caucus, Giovanni?

 

[Unkotare]

Evidence? I don't need no stinking evidence...every time I walk out my door, I'm subject to sneers, rolling eyes, and indignity from whites having to breathe my air...

Have you ever stopped to consider that the problem might be that you - as an individual - are just an asshole and people don't like you? Something to think about...

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear JW: The answer is for love of humanity to overcome the fear separating people.

King Jr. Martin Luther:
"Men often hate each other because they fear each other;
they fear each other because they don't know each other;
they don't know each other because they can not communicate;
they can not communicate because they are separated."

1 John 4:18 Perfect love casts out fear
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love."

should begin with the fact that a majority of Whites don't spend their days dreaming up ways to screw Blacks, whereas the majority of Blacks believe they are getting screwed by Whites. How to bridge this gulf between perceptions?

People of all cultures/religions/races who fear or disdain people of other groups, including and especially political groups, each benefit from resolving our own issues on our side of the fence first. That is plenty of work to do internally before involving external circumstances about what anyone else needs to change which tends to follow in turn.

Just addressing the fear of conflict over differences and confrontations,
and working through unforgiven issues from the past,
is life-changing and transformative. As we change our minds and perceptions, to focus on positive change instead of negative barriers, we change the world around us because we relate to people differently and start a chain reaction of positive change encouraging others.

All people have relatively equal work to do on issues we carry from the past and project onto our current relations and perceptions. Racial and class divisions aren't just black and white.
They cover a wide spectrum that affects us in different ways.
Everyone I know has "them vs. us" or "me vs. you" issues just because we are human.
We are going to relate to some groups and reject or segregate from others.

When we realize the difficulty and struggle we share in common as members of the human race, to work together for good despite our different backgrounds, and both the strengths and weaknesses that come with them, that's when the barriers and fear start to come down, by realizing both the problems and the solutions are mutually shared. We all have equal influence and responsibility in transforming society by changing and challenging ourselves in relation with other individuals and groups facing these same battles.

Whatever our neighbor is going through, affects us in some way; whatever we are struggling with, our neighbors have gone through in their own ways. We are in it together.

When we realize this the struggle is universal, that's 98% of the battle.
The other 98% is reaching out to uplift our neighbors who still live in fear and separation.

 

[emilynghiem]

There is no need. The "white" Republican Congress is a caucus, unto itself.

Got a link to this supposed caucus, Giovanni?

I think Poet is implying the entire GOP acts as a caucus or lobby for white/conservative representation. So you just have to look up the GOP website or their members in Congress?

 

[Unkotare]

There is no need. The "white" Republican Congress is a caucus, unto itself.

Got a link to this supposed caucus, Giovanni?

I think Poet is implying the entire GOP acts as a caucus or lobby for white/conservative representation.

I know. That's what I was calling him out on. And conservative does not = white, so your use of a slash there isn't necessary or appropriate.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Where do I start:

Lone, I can't name any traditions that have been taken from blacks because I never said any HAS been taken. If you find where I said that you win...if not, you lose.

Blacks want to be blacks means you having a problem with black traditions mean shit and whining about blacks not wanting to assimilate (drop their traditions, name or culture) means nothing. We will be who we are regardless of how YOU feel about it. It's curious that line about assimilating isn't leveled at any other group.

I posted an example of how differing unfair laws can affect the black community. I notice you cannot refute it so you change the subject to crack pipes. Ppl who sell typically don't use but you had to change the subject some way. So what I said is true unless you want to refute it

Crack was put in the black communities by Reagan. The reason it's still there is the fault of drug addicts just like with white Ppl.

And since you have no experience with the black community, you pretending to know "the biggest" problem in our community is laughable. You can't refute a word I say, you just change the topic.

 

[emilynghiem]

It's must be hard since you can't explain it.

White hyphenated Americans aren't committing crimes at the level of blacks.

White hyphenated Americans aren't aborting their babies at the rate of blacks.

White hyphenated Americans don't have unemployment numbers that blacks do.

etc...

But when they do, I'll be the first to call 'em out!

Ahh changing the topic are we? Committing crimes, having babies and being unemployed have shit to do with you ONLY disliking hyphens when Minorities use it.

Try again sparkey...Lemme guess, you don't have a problem with "hyphenated americans" anymore.

I'm changing nothing.

I ask you a question which you cannot answer.

And then I explained why I'm not complaining about the other hyphenated Americans.

And yes, that is some of the problems I see within the black community.

You don't see the problem?

Are you another apologist like your buddy Poet?

Dear CC and LL: What I learned from a workshop in mediation, is that different cultures tended to represent and communicate/negotiate differently. For example, people from a European/patrilineal type culture tended sign things in writing and not rely on word-of-mouth agreements; and tended to put a focus on individual will, ownership and responsibility. While people from either Asian, Latino, or African communities tended to make decisions "holistically" in relation to other issues and people not always directly related to the matter at hand, and to put the "collective" family/community identity BEFORE the individual. So this affects what people need in order to exercise equal representation, whether you rely on individual or collective identity to invoke authority.

So the mediators had to work around this, so people from different backgrounds wouldn't miscommunicate by sending the wrong signals because of how they represented or expressed their interests in the process of negotiation and decisionmaking.

It is important for people to form social groups by cultural, religious and political interests in order to organize resources and assistance around their concerns and programs.

Instead of competing to dominate or defend one group's priorities and issues over others,
we should use these networks for people to move toward more direct representation and self-governance. Since parties and civic/cultural associations already elect their own leaders democratically, or split and form their own groups if they disagree, it isn't that hard to use these existing structures to organize communities locally and nationwide to resolve their own issues their own ways, using their own resources and leaders, and not push that on others.

With the political and cultural diversity in America, I believe we are heading in this direction.
The more we localize responsibility, we will take that burden off govt and let people represent themselves and fund the policies consistent with their views and beliefs, instead of abusing govt and political process to impose agenda on others by bullying by coercion or exclusion. We need to respect political/cultural differences as we do religious beliefs, and let people form and fund their own groups and programs without imposing on others' views.

 

[emilynghiem]

Got a link to this supposed caucus, Giovanni?

I think Poet is implying the entire GOP acts as a caucus or lobby for white/conservative representation.

I know. That's what I was calling him out on. And conservative does not = white, so your use of a slash there isn't necessary or appropriate.

Yes, I was using BOTH terms loosely to mean whatever people associate with either one.

I have seen "white" used to mean different things.

White as in an economic class.
White as in European culture.
White as in physical race and actual lightness of skin [as in entertainers changing their
image to be more light skinned or white]
White as in the specific culture of Constitutional laws and capitalist system connected
with European history and tradition (ie White man's laws)

I agree we would need to speak specifically about WHICH aspects we mean
before talking in detail. In general I could throw any number of things under white/conservative
and mean all the associations combined whatever people attach to those.

And yes, even though there are white liberals and conservatives in the Democrat Party
and there are other ethnic groups in the Republican Party including Black and Latino conservative members,
in general I do acknowledge that people use the
liberal/Democrat label to generalize about Black politics
and the conservative/Republican label to generalize about "white conservatives"

those labels have become the new terms for
"House Negro and Field Negro"
where I recognize more and more how destructive, divisive and oppressive this is
while I recognize the same old class wars going on, labeling and dividing
people in groups, which keeps parties in conflict so we can't work together to resolve our problems effectively
but keep depending on political fraud for false security as if that is going to defend our interests and liberties.

whatever labels are used for the different classes people are groups or divided into,
I recognize that isn't fully accurate but they are still used that way to paint people in groups with a broad brush.

Sorry if this was too general or stereotypical for you,
and I am happy to be more specific so we are clearly talking about the same things.