Do You Believe In God?

[Pogo]

The ''fear'' simply means to ''fear the wrath'' of God if you break the Commandments. That doesn't mean you have to live groveling in fear.

I dunno Hoss, that's not what it says. It says "Fear God". As an imperative sentence. "God" is a direct object, not indirect. So as I read it yeah it does mean groveling.

But either way, it still quashes the "He loves us" line.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (i.e. knowledge and understanding that which is righteous- holy; Proverbs 1:7 & 9:10 along with Psalms 111:10 pretty well explains what fear of the Lord is describing).

Any Common carnal knowledge of the understanding as fear to mean groveling is mere ignorance on the part of the reader. God is not an object as an ultimate Spirit of life (God) is not limited to a certain object.

IMO, a loving God does not need to be feared.

fear in the bible doesn't mean like trembling fear... just awe, reverence...

That's what I've been trying to tell the chuckleheads but they always come back with

Seems to me if you mean "awe/reverence".... then you say "awe" or "reverence". If you mean "fear", you say "fear".

They said "fear".

What's the point of holding up a book as a standard if you're just gonna counter it with, "well, in spite of what it says here, what they really mean is..."? You might as well use a book of blank pages and call it the Holy Tabula Rasa.

Moreover, considering the firepit of Hell held over the head as a constant threat, it's pretty clear that when they said Fear --- they meant exactly that. I do not think they, the writers, are the ones confused here.

And that's the whole tipping point. People aren't positively motivated by negatives and threats. There's a fundamental difference between handling life a certain way because it's the right thing to do and brings positivity to the world, and handling it a certain way because if you don't, the Fear-ogre will burn you in eternal Fear-Fire.

 

[Bonzi]

I dunno Hoss, that's not what it says. It says "Fear God". As an imperative sentence. "God" is a direct object, not indirect. So as I read it yeah it does mean groveling.

But either way, it still quashes the "He loves us" line.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (i.e. knowledge and understanding that which is righteous- holy; Proverbs 1:7 & 9:10 along with Psalms 111:10 pretty well explains what fear of the Lord is describing).

Any Common carnal knowledge of the understanding as fear to mean groveling is mere ignorance on the part of the reader. God is not an object as an ultimate Spirit of life (God) is not limited to a certain object.

IMO, a loving God does not need to be feared.

fear in the bible doesn't mean like trembling fear... just awe, reverence...

That's what I've been trying to tell the chuckleheads but they always come back with

Seems to me if you mean "awe/reverence".... then you say "awe" or "reverence". If you mean "fear", you say "fear".

They said "fear".

What's the point of holding up a book as a standard if you're just gonna counter it with, "well, in spite of what it says here, what they really mean is..."? You might as well use a book of blank pages and call it the Holy Tabula Rasa.

Moreover, considering the firepit of Hell held over the head as a constant threat, it's pretty clear that when they said Fear --- they meant exactly that. I do not think they, the writers, are the ones confused here.

And that's the whole tipping point. People aren't positively motivated by negatives and threats. There's a big difference between handling life a certain way because it's the right thing to do and brings positivity to the world, and handling it a certain way because if you don't, the Fear-ogre will burn you in eternal Fear-Fire.

I don't have time to really answer this so I'll go with that is what I have read as far as translations go, I would need to research my findings... which I don't have now... but people that have read and heard a lot about the Bible etc. know this to be true...

 

[Pogo]

Dear Pogo I understand Fear means to Revere and Respect.

well the dictionary doesn't understand it that way.

Fear is never a positive except to the extent it makes you alert to a threat.
Which is useful. But why would you want to invent a threat in the first place?

Because you're setting your target up for a power trip, that's why.

Hi Pogo
You are still focusing on the external secular level,
with the LITERAL language and terms that people use that aren't perfect.

I think you are missing what is meant by the meaning on the collective level
of laws, principles and concepts of human nature that we DID NOT make up.

It's like the natural workings of the world already exist,
but our "man made" language for these laws are a subset.
And this can include both ABUSES that are "false faith" forced on people;
and CONSISTENT terms and laws the DO describe the physical relations and reactions
going on in nature that we DIDN'T make up..

is it CLEAR between us that the ABUSES that exploit fear-mongering
are SEPARATE from the natural laws of how human conscience and nature work.
I want to make sure you are not running these together, as if religion s are synonymous
with fear-based cult controls, and without making a fair distinction between that
and the TRUE meanings that people seek to express using these systems.

Pogo did we make up the mechanism by which we naturally seek life and avoid
things causing death?
Isn't fear a natural survival instinct and part of that binary system of either:
* yes -- this brings security and stability to prolong health and life
* no -- this is dangerous and to be avoided

Now I UNDERSTAND it is NOT healthy to have
FEAR based guilt-tripping religions for monopolizing authority
You are right to call out ABUSES of religion (or politics) based on fear-mongering,
war-mongering, hate and race baiting,etc. Not fair, not healthy and exploitative instead.

But that is NOT the true meaning and purpose behind religion (or govt laws).
Just because these get corrupted doesn't mean those ABUSES define that's what they are for!

Can we PLEASE make a distinction between
* fear-based religious/cult abuse that ISN'T the goal or purpose of religion
vs.
* natural free choice and knowledge of laws
so that fear and avoidance of ill consequences is part of the
human conscience and learning curve.

If it helps, Pogo, we know there are stages of human development
where children are first taught to obey their parents for safety and stability.
Only after kids are mature enough to reason on their own, can they be
expected to learn to make decisions, not based on reward or punishment
by parental authority, but by their own independent reason and learning
from experience of themselves and others.

Can we agree that in the PAST, when mass populations of people
start off ILLITERATE and working and depending on the upper management
and govt classes of people, then there WAS the tendency to teach
and enforce laws based on patriarchal authority, similar to the Father being the disciplinarian of the house.

Sure, this pattern is historical and can explain why the Catholic Church
has been structured this way, for social order and stability.

That was in the past.
But now that society has developed further
with more people literate, and with access to global media to communicate,
it is possible for people to operate independently, to form their own
groups and not rely on one centralized authority to govern every thing to be built and provided..

We don't need to stick to the "fear-based" simplistic way of
teaching based on "God's approval or not". That may have worked in the past,
but for the future, all people nations and tribes need to have a system of
training members to keep the group "self-sustaining."

We as humanity are supposed to move toward social and political maturity
where we make responsible decisions by reason and experience, by
educated choice, not by force of law or faith to manipulate the masses to obey blindly!

All the old ways of fear based obedience to authority are the OT way
when society was not developed, people were not literate, and collective
institutions have been used to herd people around under the management of more educated
and experienced leadership.

The NT is about sharing collective responsibility where the people realize equality.

I think this must be where you are driving at,
and the main issue is you do not relate to religious terms for this process
of growing socially to embrace Equal Justice for all people. But that is
what the end stages in the Bible are describing.

You would probably communicate this using secular terms,
and just don't relate to a personified God or Jesus that comes across
as controlling people with icons and worship of authority figures.

So if you don't relate to that approach,
I would suggest framing Jesus and God
as representing True Justice and Universal Truth
that isn't decided or made up by man. We can come
to terms and consensus on what it takes to achieve these
but no, we did not make them up. We struggle with our "man made"
perceptions and words to establish Truth and Justice,

I agree this doesn't work to project it as manmade religion.

What I find works is using religion as a language to speak to audiences
who respond to that explanation.

So Pogo if this is NOT your native language and you don't feel it relates to you,
it doesn't make sense to use it, that defeats the whole purpose.

It seems better to translate and stick to Secular terms that do ring true with you,
and then work backwards to translate those terms back into the Christian
or Biblical equivalent of that concept or principle.

So if you and I can agree on concepts like Truth and Justice,
once we agree what is the process of establishing these things,
then we could work backwards and show how the Bible uses
religious symbolism to describe that process of how
Truth is established to bring Justice and Peace.

The intent behind the religion is good, but the politics of power grabbing
has corrupted the institutions and masked and lost the message.

[Same with the true spirit of the Constitution vs. the mucked up
bureaucracies we have today that are not what govt was originally designed for,
so of course it is over backlogged and mucked up.]

Since I don't expect to live much past age 120 I'm not going to try to navigate this War and Peace post... but just getting the gist on a quick skim, let's just say this:

I don't believe in spiritual guidance via negative reinforcement.

Negative returns negative; positive returns positive.

 

[Hossfly]

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (i.e. knowledge and understanding that which is righteous- holy; Proverbs 1:7 & 9:10 along with Psalms 111:10 pretty well explains what fear of the Lord is describing).

Any Common carnal knowledge of the understanding as fear to mean groveling is mere ignorance on the part of the reader. God is not an object as an ultimate Spirit of life (God) is not limited to a certain object.

IMO, a loving God does not need to be feared.

fear in the bible doesn't mean like trembling fear... just awe, reverence...

That's what I've been trying to tell the chuckleheads but they always come back with

Seems to me if you mean "awe/reverence".... then you say "awe" or "reverence". If you mean "fear", you say "fear".

They said "fear".

What's the point of holding up a book as a standard if you're just gonna counter it with, "well, in spite of what it says here, what they really mean is..."? You might as well use a book of blank pages and call it the Holy Tabula Rasa.

Moreover, considering the firepit of Hell held over the head as a constant threat, it's pretty clear that when they said Fear --- they meant exactly that. I do not think they, the writers, are the ones confused here.

And that's the whole tipping point. People aren't positively motivated by negatives and threats. There's a big difference between handling life a certain way because it's the right thing to do and brings positivity to the world, and handling it a certain way because if you don't, the Fear-ogre will burn you in eternal Fear-Fire.

I don't have time to really answer this so I'll go with that is what I have read as far as translations go, I would need to research my findings... which I don't have now... but people that have read and heard a lot about the Bible etc. know this to be true...

There's a website called "Ask The Rabbi" but I ain't gonna go there 'cause the ones with the knowledge of Solomon here would say the Bible teacher and scholar is full of shit.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Fear doesn't mean fear it means awe



yea, the former residents of Sodom and Gamora might disagree

 

[Hossfly]

Fear doesn't mean fear it means awe



yea, the former residents of Sodom and Gamora might disagree

From Miriam-Webster See#3 Pogo

Full Definition of FEAR
transitive verb
1
archaic : frighten
2
archaic : to feel fear in (oneself)
3
: to have a reverential awe of <fear God>
4
: to be afraid of : expect with alarm <fear the worst>

 

[Two Thumbs]

Fear doesn't mean fear it means awe



yea, the former residents of Sodom and Gamora might disagree

From Miriam-Webster See#3 Pogo

Full Definition of FEAR
transitive verb
1
archaic : frighten
2
archaic : to feel fear in (oneself)
3
: to have a reverential awe of <fear God>
4
: to be afraid of : expect with alarm <fear the worst>

so soddom and gamora, as the wrath of god was coming down on them, they were in awe for their lives
as the wife got turned to stone, it was her lack of awe in god that got her punished


yes, you should fear anything that will fucking kill you for being naughty.

sorry, religion does NOT hold up to any scrutiny.

jew god; eye for an eye
christ god; turn the other cheek


these are not the same gods, unless god evolved on his view of revenge.

 

[playtime]

Hey! Here's a curveball.... I also believe that we aren't the only ones in the universe(s)

How does that cause a curveball?

I don't have any problem with people having knowledge of these other levels of life and existence
and it doesn't contradict or negate the truth in the Bible. Are you being so literal with it, that this causes conflicts?

I interpret the Bible universally to mean the process of humanity
moving from retributive justice to restorative justice.

So anything we learn is part of that process of reaching spiritual maturity and peace.

Actually, no- I don't think there's any conflict, & imo, I think it's rather arrogant of us (as humans) to think we are the only ones around. I've talked with some people who do think it's 'crazy' to believe in UFOs, but at the same time have a firm belief in God. I have first hand knowledge & experiences with both angels (as do my siblings) & a UFO (as did a vast amt of other people at a drive-in movie)...

 

[playtime]

Oh you're right, I forgot to accentuate that avoiding that axe murderer is your "sole duty".
Fear him too.

I didn't spell that out but there you go, you have your orders.


It baffles me why anyone would read a sentence that commands them to "fear" somebody -- and then actually do so. I just can't wrap the head around that. My reaction would be the exact opposite.

Anyway, there goes the old point made earlier that he "loves" us....

The ''fear'' simply means to ''fear the wrath'' of God if you break the Commandments. That doesn't mean you have to live groveling in fear.

I dunno Hoss, that's not what it says. It says "Fear God". As an imperative sentence. "God" is a direct object, not indirect. So as I read it yeah it does mean groveling.

But either way, it still quashes the "He loves us" line.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (i.e. knowledge and understanding that which is righteous- holy; Proverbs 1:7 & 9:10 along with Psalms 111:10 pretty well explains what fear of the Lord is describing).

Any Common carnal knowledge of the understanding as fear to mean groveling is mere ignorance on the part of the reader. God is not an object as an ultimate Spirit of life (God) is not limited to a certain object.

IMO, a loving God does not need to be feared.

fear in the bible doesn't mean like trembling fear... just awe, reverence...

Yes I know. Others may not. & it wasn't directed to Emily per se but rather it was just me posting my thoughts out to the universe. There are some of the fire & brimstone, everything from the OT & NT needs to be interpreted literally, keep on that narrow path or you will burn in hell 'Vengence is mine sayoth the Lord' types that do believe that God is to (literally) be feared.

 

[Bonzi]

My niece gave up on even considering a relationship with God because of people that try to scare you or force you to believe- (not force, but maybe more like intimidate?) -

Jesus was NOT like this! We shouldn't be either!

 

[Bonzi]

There's a website called "Ask The Rabbi" but I ain't gonna go there 'cause the ones with the knowledge of Solomon here would say the Bible teacher and scholar is full of shit.

I'll check it out because I want to see what he says about the Book of Isaiah.
Prophecy on Jesus, including his death are very specifically prophesied in Isaiah. So much so there is no question it's about Jesus and that he is the Messiah. Yet, Jews still refuse to acknowledge Him.

Isaiah 53 is the messianic prophecy which includes details of the death of Messiah for the sins of His people.

More than 700 years before Jesus was even born, Isaiah provides details of His life and death.

The Messiah will be rejected (Isaiah 53:3).
The Messiah will be killed as a vicarious sacrifice for the sins of His people (Isaiah 53: 5-9).
The Messiah will be silent in front of His accusers (Isaiah 53:&).
The Messiah will be buried with the rich (Isaiah 53:9).
The Messiah will be with criminals in His death (Isaiah 53:12) and so on.....

 

[Bonzi]

Seems to me if you mean "awe/reverence".... then you say "awe" or "reverence". If you mean "fear", you say "fear".

They said "fear".

What's the point of holding up a book as a standard if you're just gonna counter it with, "well, in spite of what it says here, what they really mean is..."? You might as well use a book of blank pages and call it the Holy Tabula Rasa.

Moreover, considering the firepit of Hell held over the head as a constant threat, it's pretty clear that when they said Fear --- they meant exactly that. I do not think they, the writers, are the ones confused here.

And that's the whole tipping point. People aren't positively motivated by negatives and threats. There's a fundamental difference between handling life a certain way because it's the right thing to do and brings positivity to the world, and handling it a certain way because if you don't, the Fear-ogre will burn you in eternal Fear-Fire.

Okay I have more time now

"Fear" carries two meanings: a lesser form of dread, and an awe and respect.

It is often used both ways in the bible. Sometimes it carries both meanings. Since it's often impossible to separate the difference in context, it's always translated as "fear", since the English version of the word also carries both definitions (regardless of the fact that "awe and respect" is much less common than "dread").

To further support this idea, Merriam Webster shows fear as containing both of the definitions mentioned above:

fear -
1 archaic : frighten
2 archaic : to feel fear in (oneself)
3 : to have a reverential awe of (fear God)
4 : to be afraid of : expect with alarm (fear the worst)

People should not use hell as a "scare tactic" to talk to people about living for God and accepting the free gift of salvation. Having an eternal meaning in your life and living a life more abundantly should be the focus, but it's easier for people to talk about "going to hell" etc. God want our love, not our resigned and resentful following. He wants us to be WILLING servants!

 

[sealybobo]

I believe in God - the father
Jesus is the Son.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Bible is very clear on it.

And if you were raised in Iran you'd believe Mohammad.

Or in Utah Joe Smith.

Or Africa you'd worship Juju.

 

[Bonzi]

I believe in God - the father
Jesus is the Son.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Bible is very clear on it.

And if you were raised in Iran you'd believe Mohammad.

Or in Utah Joe Smith.

Or Africa you'd worship Juju.

True, but you know that Missionaries go to these places (yes, even Utah!) and talk to people (nicely, not screaming at them about Hell) and people give their lives over to Christ. Some see the Truth, some don't. Why? I don't know, but, He reveals Himself to all of us at some point in time in our lives....

 

[peach174]

I believe in God - the father
Jesus is the Son.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Bible is very clear on it.

And if you were raised in Iran you'd believe Mohammad.

Or in Utah Joe Smith.

Or Africa you'd worship Juju.

No I would be one of the many Christians being killed by Jihadists.

 

[sealybobo]

I believe in God - the father
Jesus is the Son.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Bible is very clear on it.

And if you were raised in Iran you'd believe Mohammad.

Or in Utah Joe Smith.

Or Africa you'd worship Juju.

True, but you know that Missionaries go to these places (yes, even Utah!) and talk to people (nicely, not screaming at them about Hell) and people give their lives over to Christ. Some see the Truth, some don't. Why? I don't know, but, He reveals Himself to all of us at some point in time in our lives....

I see the truth. I voted no to the question do you believe in God.

So God revealed himself to you? Tell me about it. Sounds like an amazing experience. I would think you'd want to tell all.

 

[sealybobo]

I believe in God - the father
Jesus is the Son.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Bible is very clear on it.

And if you were raised in Iran you'd believe Mohammad.

Or in Utah Joe Smith.

Or Africa you'd worship Juju.

No I would be one of the many Christians being killed by Jihadists.

Oh shut up! You're only a Christian because you were born in a Christian society.

If Christianity were obviously true there wouldn't be other religions.

What is it about Christianity that you think makes it the obvious one true religion? And why can't Muslims and athiests see it?

 

[Bonzi]

I see the truth. I voted no to the question do you believe in God.

So God revealed himself to you? Tell me about it. Sounds like an amazing experience. I would think you'd want to tell all.

God reveals Himself in many ways, not like a magic show (e.g. Rabbit out of a hat) - if you open your heart and your mind you will see Him. Guaranteed. Someone else (forget who, sorry!) said this and it's a perfect example of the difficulty explaining the experience of God to an unbeliever:

Can you describe a color to a blind person?

 

[peach174]

I believe in God - the father
Jesus is the Son.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Bible is very clear on it.

And if you were raised in Iran you'd believe Mohammad.

Or in Utah Joe Smith.

Or Africa you'd worship Juju.

No I would be one of the many Christians being killed by Jihadists.

Oh shut up! You're only a Christian because you were born in a Christian society.

If Christianity were obviously true there wouldn't be other religions.

What is it about Christianity that you think makes it the obvious one true religion? And why can't Muslims and athiests see it?

Your 2nd sentence shows you know nothing of how God works.

Anyone who rejects the calling will be blind and not see God as the one and only true creator.
We are in end times and as we get more and more into it, many will open their hearts and their minds and they will see that Jesus is coming back.
God is showing the whole world right now that the end times that the Bible talks about is coming true right before our very eyes.
Many are still blind and deaf to it. Many will reject it.
Anyone who sees him coming to go to war against the Nations that want to wipe Israel off the map can call out to him and they will be saved.
God will give many people on Earth the signs of the truth.
It is up to the individuals to decide.

 

[peach174]

I believe in God - the father
Jesus is the Son.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Bible is very clear on it.

And if you were raised in Iran you'd believe Mohammad.

Or in Utah Joe Smith.

Or Africa you'd worship Juju.

True, but you know that Missionaries go to these places (yes, even Utah!) and talk to people (nicely, not screaming at them about Hell) and people give their lives over to Christ. Some see the Truth, some don't. Why? I don't know, but, He reveals Himself to all of us at some point in time in our lives....

I see the truth. I voted no to the question do you believe in God.

So God revealed himself to you? Tell me about it. Sounds like an amazing experience. I would think you'd want to tell all.

You know about the Bible you decided not to accept it or read it.
Once you decided that you will remain blind and deaf.
When you accept Jesus as your savior, you will receive the Holy Spirit and your ears and eyes will be opened to the truth.