Jesus was a commie...

[M14 Shooter]

Fine.
Then you agree that Jesus would support welfare.

I do not, for the reasons I have stated -- had you been paying attention, you would have discerned this.

The weflare state is not Christian charity, because it --forces-- people to give. Christian charity os based on free will -- that is, voluntarily giving to the needy because you want to do the right thing -- which does not exist under the welfare stated.

Jesus wasn't about forcing anyone to do anything.

 

[manifold]

I do not, for the reasons I have stated -- had you been paying attention, you would have discerned this.

The weflare state is not Christian charity, because it --forces-- people to give. Christian charity os based on free will -- that is, voluntarily giving to the needy because you want to do the right thing -- which does not exist under the welfare stated.

Jesus wasn't about forcing anyone to do anything.

Ahhhhh, I get it now. The tenet of freewill only applies to "charity." Jesus is perfectly fine with all other man-made infringements on freewill as long as they don't involve taking a person's money. Because we all know that Jesus valued money above all else.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks!

 

[Ravi]

I do not, for the reasons I have stated -- had you been paying attention, you would have discerned this.

The weflare state is not Christian charity, because it --forces-- people to give. Christian charity os based on free will -- that is, voluntarily giving to the needy because you want to do the right thing -- which does not exist under the welfare stated.

Jesus wasn't about forcing anyone to do anything.

Shooter,

Can you come up with a quote that indicates that Jesus was against charity that wasn't based on free will?

Thanks.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Ahhhhh, I get it now. The tenet of freewill only applies to "charity."

No, it applies to everythng.

 

[manifold]

No, it applies to everythng.

Arrrrghhh!

Would you please make up your mind! If it applies to everything, then that includes all laws, not just those that require you to pay taxes and require that a portion of that money be used for charity.

It's pretty simple logic. If circumventing freewill is sufficient reason on it's own, for Jesus to oppose a given law, then it's reason enough for Jesus to oppose all laws.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Arrrrghhh!
Would you please make up your mind!

My mind is made up -- it's your lack of comprehension that's causing you problems.

 

[Ravi]

Shooter, no quotes? The best I could come up with, and this was pre-Jesus, was that one of the reasons Sodom was destroyed was because the city didn't help the poor and needy.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Shooter, no quotes? The best I could come up with, and this was pre-Jesus, was that one of the reasons Sodom was destroyed was because the city didn't help the poor and needy.

I'm no scientist. I cannot prove that photosynthesis occurs. But I believe scientists have proved it, so I believe them. I cannot prove that it is oxygen that keeps us humans alive (instead of nitrogen, hydrogen or whatever), but scientists have proved it. I believe them.

Similarly, I can't prove beyond all doubt that Jesus would have opposed the welfare state, but I have read things to that effect written by people who can, and don't believe it for a moment. That is all the proof I need. If it looks, quacks and waddles like a duck, chances are it ain't an alligator.

(Note: if this isn't good enugh for you, you'll need to take it up with Dr Grumpy, as this is HIS stanard of proof)

 

[Ravi]

I'm no scientist. I cannot prove that photosynthesis occurs. But I believe scientists have proved it, so I believe them. I cannot prove that it is oxygen that keeps us humans alive (instead of nitrogen, hydrogen or whatever), but scientists have proved it. I believe them.

Similarly, I can't prove beyond all doubt that Jesus would have opposed the welfare state, but I have read things to that effect written by people who can, and don't believe it for a moment. That is all the proof I need. If it looks, quacks and waddles like a duck, chances are it ain't an alligator.

(Note: if this isn't good enugh for you, you'll need to take it up with Dr Grumpy, as this is HIS stanard of proof)

Don't worry about it. If you can't back up your statement with fact, no big deal.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Don't worry about it. If you can't back up your statement with fact, no big deal.

I'll be certain to pass that along to Dr. Grump.

 

[Care4all]

I thought I did. But upon re-reading it I see your point.

So let me restate: How come there aren't more socialist Christians.

Being Selfish....a natural tendency....even when the rich man that had Jesus right next to him, supposedly believed in Jesus's message and asked what he should do..... And Jesus told him to give up all that he owned....the rich man could not do it....with God made man, (if you believe) right by his side....

Christians are taught not to put material things before God....however, i don't think we really are doing a good job of it....including myself!

Many Democratic Christians do better than most, when it comes to giving up their tax monies collected to give to the needy.

Many Republican Christians do better than most when it comes to giving to charity, to help the needy.....this can not be disregarded imo.

Their "approaches" to the problems of the needy are just different....and in my humble opinion, neither should be chastised.

Now, along with what Christianity teaches regarding those in need....(help them), it also teaches us that the lazy man does wrong, in the eyes of God....that we should labor for what we earn....when it comes to men, the woman was to labor at home....not to be lazy either. Granted, times have changed and women are no longer just laboring in the home but outside of the home too...

I think that people on the Right, tend to take the passage about lazyness to heart...BUT, have lossed their sense of sensitivity and label all poor lazy, even THOUGH the majority of our poor are WORKING, are LABORING, yet still in poverty....

Care

 

[Shogun]

But who will really care that m14 chooses to avoid quoting jebus while INSISTING that the dogma namesake would be against welfare?


The Shogun spotted this circular illogical strategy 5 pages ago.

 

[Care4all]

But who will really care that m14 chooses to avoid quoting jebus while INSISTING that the dogma namesake would be against welfare?


The Shogun spotted this circular illogical strategy 5 pages ago.

I agree, the Bible says no such thing, and there is no QUOTE that can be posted that says such, in my humble opinion, from what I have read in the Gospel....for certain!

In fact the Bible/Jesus TOLD US to give unto ceasar what is his....in other words pay your taxes. (The apostle Matthew was a TAX COLLECTOR for the Roman's that ruled.)

The Pharisees tried to trick Jesus in to saying they should not pay their taxes....Jesus was not fooled by these men when he answered....who's head is on the coin...? Caesars head and Rome was on the coin....their ruling government was on the coin....thus "Give unto Caesar, what is his".....

care

 

[manifold]

My mind is made up --

I know. You've made up your mind to ignore the glaring contradictions in your own logic because to do otherwise might, perhaps, just maybe, force you to realize you were completely full of shit in the first place. Ego's a bitch sometimes.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I know. You've made up your mind to ignore the glaring contradictions in your own logic...

The part you dont understand that there is no contradiction....

 

[Ravi]

I'll be certain to pass that along to Dr. Grump.

Since you refuse to cough up an evidence I've been reading on the internet and have discovered that evangelicals share your belief that welfare is wrong because they feel it is something the government is forcing upon them, it is not coming from their hearts. And they also feel that brownie points with God are not earned unless it comes from their heart.

IMO, a group of people got together and decided the best way to help the poor was to have every member of the group that can afford it put some money in a bank to be given out to those in need. Those that do not wish to be members of this group are welcome to leave the group. Free will is a lovely thing.

 

[manifold]

The part you dont understand that there is no contradiction....

My mistake was assuming too much from you, nothing else. But now that I have a better understanding of what I'm dealing with, I think I can parse out the logic in small enough chunks that even you should be able to understand.

First, are you willing to acknowledge the fact that a law is, by definition, a restriction on freewill?

 

[M14 Shooter]

My mistake was assuming too much from you, nothing else. But now that I have a better understanding of what I'm dealing with, I think I can parse out the logic in small enough chunks that even you should be able to understand.

I've read your argument. It has nothing to do with mine.
If you understood my argument, you wouldn't be asking the question, below.

First, are you willing to acknowledge the fact that a law is, by definition, a restriction on freewill?

 

[manifold]

If it has nothing to do with your position, why are you afraid to answer the question?

No problem or disagreement is so big that it cannot be broken down into it's fundamental elements with each addressed individually.


So again I ask: Are you willing to acknowledge the fact that a law is, by definition, a restriction on freewill?

 

[Care4all]

My mistake was assuming too much from you, nothing else. But now that I have a better understanding of what I'm dealing with, I think I can parse out the logic in small enough chunks that even you should be able to understand.

First, are you willing to acknowledge the fact that a law is, by definition, a restriction on freewill?

no, it has nothing to do with choosing Good over Evil, or Right from Wrong....which is what freewill is.....the ability to discern right from wrong.

I can take a secular approach and answer you that "we the people" institute the laws upon ourselves through REPRESENTATION by those we elect...that sure sounds like a secular freewill to me....

care