Michigan about to be lost to republicans for a generation

[LeftCoastVoter]

I just saw some laborers getting rounded up in the back of a Deuce and a half.

Workers' salaries have not stagnated. That is a statistical lie. The biggest enemy of workers is higher productivity.

wow apparently math and reasoning arent your strong suits.

yup totally lies there.

Yes, statistical lies. You doubtless dont know the difference. Note that your chart measures "household income." What is "household income"? It is total income from everyone in the household. When the economy improves and junior moves out of mom's basement, household income drops because the original household doesn't have junior's income and junior constitutes his own household. But would anyone say that represents a negative?
And quoting HuffPo is so RDean.

seeing as how did you didnt even look at the charts. the source is actually from the economic policy institute and refers to median household income, not average household income. apparently you dont know the difference median, and average. care to open a dictionary?

your rebuttal is also extremely juvenile and lacking any real substance. you make the full assumption nearly every household contains working adult children and they contribute to that household. care to provide any proof on this claim?

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

You keep saying that...and then you object to me saying you're anti-freedom.

how is giving people the choice anti-freedom?

Do you contradict yourself on a regular basis or just in this thread?

answer the question.

i have already established the fact that no one is ever forced to join a union. those of you on the right just fail to accept this simple fact. so in deed the worker always has a choice. how is this anti-freedom?

 

[saveliberty]

I like how the first graph shows the median household income the LOWEST in Obama's term.

Graph two only goes to 2008, wonder why?

Graph three is also at its lowest under Obama.

 

[saveliberty]

answer the question.

i have already established the fact that no one is ever forced to join a union. those of you on the right just fail to accept this simple fact. so in deed the worker always has a choice. how is this anti-freedom?

Having to choose between the job and being in a union is force.

Having to endure pressure from union members to join is force.

Force comes in many forms. One thing is for sure, people are forced.

Btw, Michigan Carpenter's Union members pay over $2,700 in dues each year. I seriously doubt they get benefits that equal the dues.

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

I like how the first graph shows the median household income the LOWEST in Obama's term.

Graph two only goes to 2008, wonder why?

Graph three is also at its lowest under Obama.

yup exactly and totally his fault and his fault alone. never mind that terrible worst recession since the great depression, the 750,000 jobs a month that the economy was shedding.

its amazing how you people on the right dont understand cause and effect.

 

[The Rabbi]

wow apparently math and reasoning arent your strong suits.

yup totally lies there.

Yes, statistical lies. You doubtless dont know the difference. Note that your chart measures "household income." What is "household income"? It is total income from everyone in the household. When the economy improves and junior moves out of mom's basement, household income drops because the original household doesn't have junior's income and junior constitutes his own household. But would anyone say that represents a negative?
And quoting HuffPo is so RDean.

seeing as how did you didnt even look at the charts. the source is actually from the economic policy institute and refers to median household income, not average household income. apparently you dont know the difference median, and average. care to open a dictionary?

your rebuttal is also extremely juvenile and lacking any real substance. you make the full assumption nearly every household contains working adult children and they contribute to that household. care to provide any proof on this claim?

You understand that it doesn't matter whether it is median or average, right? My argument is still the same. Do you really think households remain steady in both number and earning power?
Census: U.S. household size shrinking - Technology & science - Science - LiveScience | NBC News

 

[saveliberty]

I like how the first graph shows the median household income the LOWEST in Obama's term.

Graph two only goes to 2008, wonder why?

Graph three is also at its lowest under Obama.

yup exactly and totally his fault and his fault alone. never mind that terrible worst recession since the great depression, the 750,000 jobs a month that the economy was shedding.

its amazing how you people on the right dont understand cause and effect.

The graph was still declining two years into Obama's adminstration. He has to take responsibility for his failed policies.

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

answer the question.

i have already established the fact that no one is ever forced to join a union. those of you on the right just fail to accept this simple fact. so in deed the worker always has a choice. how is this anti-freedom?

Having to choose between the job and being in a union is force.

Having to endure pressure from union members to join is force.

Force comes in many forms. One thing is for sure, people are forced.

Btw, Michigan Carpenter's Union members pay over $2,700 in dues each year. I seriously doubt they get benefits that equal the dues.

i didnt see where your ability to choose was legislated out of the equation.

btw the Michigan carpenters union has been able to negotiate a rate of nearly $5 per hour more than non union employees. so that $2700 in dues is negated by the $10,000 annually they are earning (or a net of $7300 if your mathematically challenged) id say that $2700 is a good investment for a 270% return.

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

I like how the first graph shows the median household income the LOWEST in Obama's term.

Graph two only goes to 2008, wonder why?

Graph three is also at its lowest under Obama.

yup exactly and totally his fault and his fault alone. never mind that terrible worst recession since the great depression, the 750,000 jobs a month that the economy was shedding.

its amazing how you people on the right dont understand cause and effect.

The graph was still declining two years into Obama's adminstration. He has to take responsibility for his failed policies.

right, because you can recover from a recession of that magnitude in less than 2 years. read up on the great depression and how long it took to climb back out of that.

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

Yes, statistical lies. You doubtless dont know the difference. Note that your chart measures "household income." What is "household income"? It is total income from everyone in the household. When the economy improves and junior moves out of mom's basement, household income drops because the original household doesn't have junior's income and junior constitutes his own household. But would anyone say that represents a negative?
And quoting HuffPo is so RDean.

seeing as how did you didnt even look at the charts. the source is actually from the economic policy institute and refers to median household income, not average household income. apparently you dont know the difference median, and average. care to open a dictionary?

your rebuttal is also extremely juvenile and lacking any real substance. you make the full assumption nearly every household contains working adult children and they contribute to that household. care to provide any proof on this claim?

You understand that it doesn't matter whether it is median or average, right? My argument is still the same. Do you really think households remain steady in both number and earning power?
Census: U.S. household size shrinking - Technology & science - Science - LiveScience | NBC News

your statement alone contradicts your previous argument. you claim that household size is increasing because adult children are staying at home longer, while in the very next post you provide a link claiming that household size is in fact shrinking. so what is it? can you keep your argument straight?

 

[Si modo]

how is giving people the choice anti-freedom?

Do you contradict yourself on a regular basis or just in this thread?

answer the question.

i have already established the fact that no one is ever forced to join a union. those of you on the right just fail to accept this simple fact. so in deed the worker always has a choice. how is this anti-freedom?

You have not.

Of course a worker can choose not to join a union but that excludes and LIMITS his/her employment choices. Making it illegal to force dues to be paid eradicates the limits of employment choices. The workers' choices are increased.

Why are you anti-freedom of choice?

 

[The Rabbi]

seeing as how did you didnt even look at the charts. the source is actually from the economic policy institute and refers to median household income, not average household income. apparently you dont know the difference median, and average. care to open a dictionary?

your rebuttal is also extremely juvenile and lacking any real substance. you make the full assumption nearly every household contains working adult children and they contribute to that household. care to provide any proof on this claim?

You understand that it doesn't matter whether it is median or average, right? My argument is still the same. Do you really think households remain steady in both number and earning power?
Census: U.S. household size shrinking - Technology & science - Science - LiveScience | NBC News

your statement alone contradicts your previous argument. you claim that household size is increasing because adult children are staying at home longer, while in the very next post you provide a link claiming that household size is in fact shrinking. so what is it? can you keep your argument straight?

No, idiot. I never claimed household size was increasing. I claim household size varies, and so does household income. So your graphs do not say what you want them to say, that middle class wage earners are making the same money they made 25 years ago. Which should be obviously untrue to anyone actually working. Which excludes you.

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

Do you contradict yourself on a regular basis or just in this thread?

answer the question.

i have already established the fact that no one is ever forced to join a union. those of you on the right just fail to accept this simple fact. so in deed the worker always has a choice. how is this anti-freedom?

You have not.

Of course a worker can choose not to join a union but that excludes and LIMITS his/her employment choices. Making it illegal to force dues to be paid eradicates the limits of employment choices. The workers' choices are increased.

Why are you anti-freedom of choice?

you finally hit it on the head. workers are never forced to join unions. said from your own lips.
joining a union is not a barrier to entry, it is a requirement for entry. the worker has the same choices as before, he can choose to join the union or not. the consequences of that choice are his/hers alone. no choices are being taken away, no ability to make a decision is being taken away. the choice to join a union or not has always and will always lie with the worker.

 

[Si modo]

answer the question.

i have already established the fact that no one is ever forced to join a union. those of you on the right just fail to accept this simple fact. so in deed the worker always has a choice. how is this anti-freedom?

You have not.

Of course a worker can choose not to join a union but that excludes and LIMITS his/her employment choices. Making it illegal to force dues to be paid eradicates the limits of employment choices. The workers' choices are increased.

Why are you anti-freedom of choice?

you finally hit it on the head. workers are never forced to join unions. said from your own lips.
joining a union is not a barrier to entry, it is a requirement for entry. the worker has the same choices as before, he can choose to join the union or not. the consequences of that choice are his/hers alone. no choices are being taken away, no ability to make a decision is being taken away. the choice to join a union or not has always and will always lie with the worker.

An auto line worker cannot get a job in his field unless he accepts extortion.

Not any longer. He now has a choice and the freedom to have a job in his field.


You're an idiot. You probably are of the mind that gays can get married...no one is preventing them from doing that...as long as they marry someone of the opposite sex. They are free to get married.

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

You understand that it doesn't matter whether it is median or average, right? My argument is still the same. Do you really think households remain steady in both number and earning power?
Census: U.S. household size shrinking - Technology & science - Science - LiveScience | NBC News

your statement alone contradicts your previous argument. you claim that household size is increasing because adult children are staying at home longer, while in the very next post you provide a link claiming that household size is in fact shrinking. so what is it? can you keep your argument straight?

No, idiot. I never claimed household size was increasing. I claim household size varies, and so does household income. So your graphs do not say what you want them to say, that middle class wage earners are making the same money they made 25 years ago. Which should be obviously untrue to anyone actually working. Which excludes you.

that it. call me names, does it help you sleep better at night in mommy and daddy's basement?

here is exactly what you said:

When the economy improves and junior moves out of mom's basement, household income drops because the original household doesn't have junior's income and junior constitutes his own household.

so your original claim is that household size was higher because junior is still at home.
while in the very next post you link this:
Census: U.S. household size shrinking - Technology & science - Science - LiveScience | NBC News

if junior is staying home then household size would be increasing, not decreasing, as that would happen when the leave.

can you even keep a consistent argument?

 

[clevergirl]

answer the question.

i have already established the fact that no one is ever forced to join a union. those of you on the right just fail to accept this simple fact. so in deed the worker always has a choice. how is this anti-freedom?

You have not.

Of course a worker can choose not to join a union but that excludes and LIMITS his/her employment choices. Making it illegal to force dues to be paid eradicates the limits of employment choices. The workers' choices are increased.

Why are you anti-freedom of choice?

you finally hit it on the head. workers are never forced to join unions. said from your own lips.
joining a union is not a barrier to entry, it is a requirement for entry. the worker has the same choices as before, he can choose to join the union or not. the consequences of that choice are his/hers alone. no choices are being taken away, no ability to make a decision is being taken away. the choice to join a union or not has always and will always lie with the worker.

No, compulsory union membership is technically a misnomer. BUT, the coercive behavior of unions is not a myth. Right To Work laws make it clear that employers can go outside labor unions to hire for work... This includes state governments as well. THAT is what all the fuss is about. Unions have cut their own throats by demanding too much too often.

 

[Dick Tuck]

The new jobs will be low-paying McJobs with no benefits. If the companies have their way, like Wal-Mart, the government will end up subsidising their health care, housing and food stamps. Good luck with that revenue.

Someone else made that claim in another thread. I asked for evidence.

None was given.

Now it's your turn. Prove the new jobs in RTW states are McJobs. And union website propaganda is not allowed.

I live in a right to work state (Virginia) and my county has the second highest median income in the nation. In fact, the top three highest median income counties are in my state and my state has five counties in the top ten median income counties in the nation. List of highest-income counties in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Years ago when I worked at Celanese, our main plants were in Texas (Corpus and Pampa). The labor at both plants was paid higher than their union counterparts in other non right to work states. Celanese only wanted the best and they paid them well to keep those employees.

A high concentration of lobbyists and Beltway bandit defense contractors isn't something I'd attribute to being a right to work state.

 

[saveliberty]

yup exactly and totally his fault and his fault alone. never mind that terrible worst recession since the great depression, the 750,000 jobs a month that the economy was shedding.

its amazing how you people on the right dont understand cause and effect.

The graph was still declining two years into Obama's adminstration. He has to take responsibility for his failed policies.

right, because you can recover from a recession of that magnitude in less than 2 years. read up on the great depression and how long it took to climb back out of that.

Your graphs offer no evidence one way or the other, but I doubt they show an improvement two additional years in. As of the graphs things were NOT recovering in any way, shape or form. The "climb" is nonexistent.

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

You have not.

Of course a worker can choose not to join a union but that excludes and LIMITS his/her employment choices. Making it illegal to force dues to be paid eradicates the limits of employment choices. The workers' choices are increased.

Why are you anti-freedom of choice?

you finally hit it on the head. workers are never forced to join unions. said from your own lips.
joining a union is not a barrier to entry, it is a requirement for entry. the worker has the same choices as before, he can choose to join the union or not. the consequences of that choice are his/hers alone. no choices are being taken away, no ability to make a decision is being taken away. the choice to join a union or not has always and will always lie with the worker.

An auto line worker cannot get a job in his field unless he accepts extortion.

Not any longer. He now has a choice and the freedom to have a job in his field.


You're an idiot. You probably are of the mind that gays can get married...no one is preventing them from doing that...as long as they marry someone of the opposite sex. They are free to get married.

there any many automotive factories that are not union.

Honda, Kia, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Toyota and Volkswagen just to name a few. they dont require union membership, however they pay lower wages. on average 10-20% less.

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

You have not.

Of course a worker can choose not to join a union but that excludes and LIMITS his/her employment choices. Making it illegal to force dues to be paid eradicates the limits of employment choices. The workers' choices are increased.

Why are you anti-freedom of choice?

you finally hit it on the head. workers are never forced to join unions. said from your own lips.
joining a union is not a barrier to entry, it is a requirement for entry. the worker has the same choices as before, he can choose to join the union or not. the consequences of that choice are his/hers alone. no choices are being taken away, no ability to make a decision is being taken away. the choice to join a union or not has always and will always lie with the worker.

No, compulsory union membership is technically a misnomer. BUT, the coercive behavior of unions is not a myth. Right To Work laws make it clear that employers can go outside labor unions to hire for work... This includes state governments as well. THAT is what all the fuss is about. Unions have cut their own throats by demanding too much too often.

again, to the main point, why does the right feel the need to legislate a choice that already exists? no one forces an employer to accept a union contract, while at the same time no employee is ever forced to join a union. why does the right feel the need to legislate this instead of leaving it up to the decision of the worker?