Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[abi]

You have an area that contains holy sites importent to three closely intertwined world religions. The same archaeologists that dispute which is the right wall don't dispute the evidence of Jewish history in that place and it sounds like you are. Are you?

NO! OK? You are reading what Shusha claims I say. She does this to repeat her nonstop argument. She does this on multiple threads. This is known as creating a straw man. It is the cause of all these same circular debates on nearly every thread. As a mod, you should already know this. And if "the 3 strike rule" was actually implemented, we could probably have some decent discussion and actually find out what points all sides agree on, which I believe to be many.

Places like these must be preserved and acess by all relevent faiths protected. I do think Israel has done a decent job there. Can you grant them that?

A) If they are wailing at the wrong wall, they are wailing at the wrong wall, period. B) They are running around with guns after removing them from all Christians and Muslims. The incitement that this causes along with Israel's ability to close the area off to anyone they choose and whenever they choose is probably difficult for any of us to understand. So, no, the whole Mount situation needs to be seriously rethought.

How would you change it?

Reality Check: Jerusalem has zero legitimate religious sanctity in Islam. It’s not even mentioned in the Koran Not even once

Jerusalem is the Jewish National Capital since antiquity

It does not have to be mentioned in the Koran to have legitimacy.

Jerusalem’s total absence in the Koran reflects its total lack of holiness in Islam.

Now you know

You have never read the Quran and the whole 72 virgins thing is not in the Quran, does that mean that that is not an Islamic teaching?

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[JoelT1]

NO! OK? You are reading what Shusha claims I say. She does this to repeat her nonstop argument. She does this on multiple threads. This is known as creating a straw man. It is the cause of all these same circular debates on nearly every thread. As a mod, you should already know this. And if "the 3 strike rule" was actually implemented, we could probably have some decent discussion and actually find out what points all sides agree on, which I believe to be many.

A) If they are wailing at the wrong wall, they are wailing at the wrong wall, period. B) They are running around with guns after removing them from all Christians and Muslims. The incitement that this causes along with Israel's ability to close the area off to anyone they choose and whenever they choose is probably difficult for any of us to understand. So, no, the whole Mount situation needs to be seriously rethought.

How would you change it?

Reality Check: Jerusalem has zero legitimate religious sanctity in Islam. It’s not even mentioned in the Koran Not even once

Jerusalem is the Jewish National Capital since antiquity

It does not have to be mentioned in the Koran to have legitimacy.

Jerusalem’s total absence in the Koran reflects its total lack of holiness in Islam.

Now you know

You have never read the Quran and the whole 72 virgins thing is not in the Quran, does that mean that that is not an Islamic teaching?

Um, there is no “teaching” of the “72 virgins thing” Now you know

 

[JoelT1]

NO! OK? You are reading what Shusha claims I say. She does this to repeat her nonstop argument. She does this on multiple threads. This is known as creating a straw man. It is the cause of all these same circular debates on nearly every thread. As a mod, you should already know this. And if "the 3 strike rule" was actually implemented, we could probably have some decent discussion and actually find out what points all sides agree on, which I believe to be many.

A) If they are wailing at the wrong wall, they are wailing at the wrong wall, period. B) They are running around with guns after removing them from all Christians and Muslims. The incitement that this causes along with Israel's ability to close the area off to anyone they choose and whenever they choose is probably difficult for any of us to understand. So, no, the whole Mount situation needs to be seriously rethought.

How would you change it?

Reality Check: Jerusalem has zero legitimate religious sanctity in Islam. It’s not even mentioned in the Koran Not even once

Jerusalem is the Jewish National Capital since antiquity

It does not have to be mentioned in the Koran to have legitimacy.

Jerusalem’s total absence in the Koran reflects its total lack of holiness in Islam.

Now you know

You have never read the Quran and the whole 72 virgins thing is not in the Quran, does that mean that that is not an Islamic teaching?

Point to “Jerusalem” in the original Koran text and I’ll give you a cookie

 

[Sixties Fan]

[Palestinians and their endless attempts to tell the world that Jews do not have the right to self determination on their own ancient homeland ]

TfL bans ads displaying Palestinian objections to Balfour declaration

 

[Shusha]

we could probably have some decent discussion and actually find out what points all sides agree on, which I believe to be many.

If you want to discuss points of agreement and solutions to the conflict, why don't you weigh in on one of the three "solutions" threads in the stickies?

 

[JoelT1]

[Palestinians and their endless attempts to tell the world that Jews do not have the right to self determination on their own ancient homeland ]

TfL bans ads displaying Palestinian objections to Balfour declaration

No palestinian history because they’re invented. Much history of the Jews

 

[P F Tinmore]

[Palestinians and their endless attempts to tell the world that Jews do not have the right to self determination on their own ancient homeland ]

TfL bans ads displaying Palestinian objections to Balfour declaration

So,what is wrong with the ad?

 

[Indeependent]

[Palestinians and their endless attempts to tell the world that Jews do not have the right to self determination on their own ancient homeland ]

TfL bans ads displaying Palestinian objections to Balfour declaration

So,what is wrong with the ad?

The Arabs are alive.

 

[Shusha]

[Palestinians and their endless attempts to tell the world that Jews do not have the right to self determination on their own ancient homeland ]

TfL bans ads displaying Palestinian objections to Balfour declaration

So,what is wrong with the ad?

You mean besides the COLOSSAL lie that a society was stamped out?

And the COLOSSAL omission of Arab complicity?

And the complete fabrication that Arabs rights are being removed?

And the entire neglect to tell the other side of the story?

And the blatant appeal to emotion at the expense of reality?

 

[Indeependent]

[Palestinians and their endless attempts to tell the world that Jews do not have the right to self determination on their own ancient homeland ]

TfL bans ads displaying Palestinian objections to Balfour declaration

So,what is wrong with the ad?

You mean besides the COLOSSAL lie that a society was stamped out?

And the COLOSSAL omission of Arab complicity?

And the complete fabrication that Arabs rights are being removed?

And the entire neglect to tell the other side of the story?

And the blatant appeal to emotion at the expense of reality?

Leeennnk?

 

[Shusha]

Before:

After:

 

[Shusha]

[Palestinians and their endless attempts to tell the world that Jews do not have the right to self determination on their own ancient homeland ]

TfL bans ads displaying Palestinian objections to Balfour declaration

So,what is wrong with the ad?

You mean besides the COLOSSAL lie that a society was stamped out?

And the COLOSSAL omission of Arab complicity?

And the complete fabrication that Arabs rights are being removed?

And the entire neglect to tell the other side of the story?

And the blatant appeal to emotion at the expense of reality?

But aside from all that....let me tell what is really wrong with any campaign which opposes the Balfour Declaration specifically. The Balfour Declaration is the recognition of a people to their right to reconstitute their Nation in their ancestral and historical homeland.

Any movement which fundamentally rejects that concept is fundamentally rejecting the rights of all people to self-determination and sovereignty OR is specifically rejecting the rights of just ONE people to self-determination and sovereignty.

The former is in direct conflict with what the Arab Palestinians hope to achieve and the latter is anti-semitism.

 

[P F Tinmore]

[Palestinians and their endless attempts to tell the world that Jews do not have the right to self determination on their own ancient homeland ]

TfL bans ads displaying Palestinian objections to Balfour declaration

So,what is wrong with the ad?

Balfour at 100: A legacy of racism and propaganda

The coming months mark the centennial of Palestine’s forcible incorporation into the British Empire. In November 1917, British foreign secretary Lord Arthur Balfour declared his government’s support for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”; in December, Jerusalem fell to British troops. One hundred years later, the effects of these events continue to reverberate. This should be a time of sombre reflection about international responsibility for the unfolding tragedy in Palestine.

This responsibility should weigh heavily on the West. Walid Khalidi put it well: “The Zionists were the initiators. But they were also, as they still are, the protégés of their Anglo–American sponsors and the emanations of their power, resources, and will.” The fact is that the Israeli state can’t be credited for much originality – either in its brutality or in the hypocrisy deployed to cover it. And it is all too fitting that it was British imperialism that propelled the Zionist movement onto the world stage.

Balfour at 100: A legacy of racism and propaganda

 

[José]

Originally posted by rylah
In the meanwhile please explain, what is this "right to ethnic composition" ?

The natural right of the chinese people to preserve the han chinese majority of their homeland by controlling immigration.

Their natural right to prevent millions of whites, blacks or even other asians from turning them into a minority in their own homeland.

The same natural right of the arab population of Palestine that was raped by Britain.

 

[José]

Originally posted by RoccoR
But the Peace of Westphalia did not prohibit territorial occupation by the victors over the defeated; not then and not through the era of WW II. The EOTA did not more than what was customary.

So you recognize the historic fact that during the first half of the last century Britain exerted imperialism on the native people of Palestine.

The region of Palestine was militarily occupied by the army of an european people who took away the right of the native people to govern their homeland, decide whether they wanted to create a state in Palestine or join a larger arab state and preserve the ethnic make up of their land.

Virginia, the homeland of the Powhatan, Roanoke and Hokan Sioux peoples, occupied by british colonization companies and british subjects acting under the authority of the british crown who took away their right to control their homeland and preserve their ethnic majority in their homeland.

Originally posted by RoccoR
Nor was there any intent, more than any other previous war, to manipulate the Regional ethnic composition any more than necessary.

So you recognize the fact that Britain, against the will of the natives, allowed the destruction of the regional ethnic composition that ended up turning the native population in a minority in the western half of their homeland.

And what was "necessary" to fulfill the Zionist dream of a "classic" nation state for the Jews where they would constitute 80 to 90% of the population was much greater than the narrow jewish majority that Britain's military occupation and the Zionist movement could create in 30 years even after WWII.

So an overwhelming jewish majority had to be "created" by other means.

By the mid-17th century, the indigenous population of Virginia had already been supplanted by the english colonists.

JOSÉ: A colonialist movement was allowed by the invading european power to create a TOTALLY SEPARATED society from the existing native society

RoccoR: As is very often the case, the protection and preservation of a small - minority culture. As honest as the dogma of --- create a TOTALLY SEPARATED society --- might sound.

So you recognize the fact that the british occupiers allowed the Zionists to create a totally separated society from the arab society, complete with a jewish press, jewish school system, farms, industries, banks, political institutions and leadership, proto-army, etc, etc...

The settlement of Jamestown and the future Colony of Virginia, were, respectively, a community and a society totally separated from the Algonquian and Iroquoian native societies that existed in Virginia.

JOSÉ: the colonists drove the native inhabitants into ethnic enclaves where they are kept to this day under the threat of death.

RoccoR: Yes, yes... Americans are always the bad guys. This mantra is so old as to have virtually no impact any more. The Arabs (through the Arab Higher Committee) have made this claim so often, some have set the mantra to music.

So you are, more or less, obliquely, reluctantly recognizing the fact that the new, separate society Britain allowed the Zionists to create in Palestine led to the collapse of the pre-existing society?

Pay attention...

I'm not talking about the killing or imprisonment of the tiny fraction of arabs who took up arms against the new colonial society built on their homeland during the last 2 months of 1947 and the first half of 1948...

I'm talking about the collapse of an entire society, with hundreds of villages, towns and cities depopulated, that were later razed to the ground, with hundreds of thousands of refugees dispersed throughout the region, massacres, the placement of snipers along the borders of the new society to prevent their return, their leadership exiled, their economy destroyed.

I assume you are grudgingly recognizing that the new separate, ethnocratic society whose establishment Britain facilitated in Palestine effectively destroyed the native one.

At the turn of the century (1700) mere 90 years after the founding of Jamestown, the native societies of Virginia had lost their entire homeland to the new colonial society and most of the original tribes have now disappeared from History.

 

[José]

Rocco

You reject most of the comparisons between Israel and America, Canada, Mexico, South Africa, Australia, etc...

RoccoR:
The territory subject to the Mandate was never a "colonial project."

Yes, the "Colonial Project" whining.

That is simply an illusion by the illiterate.

But your description of the creation of the state of Israel (from the british military occupation, denial of natives' rights, destruction of the racial composition of their homeland, creation of a parallel and separate society to the collapse of the native society and confinement of the native population in ethnic enclaves) fits the definition and description of a colonial society and a future ethnocratic state to a T.

You see an animal in front of you that barks, wags its tail, eats meat, gnaw bones, likes to follow its owner wherever he goes, doesn't climb trees but you insist on calling it a cat.

Something is wrong with your ideas.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Settlements myth
The panel states,

“There are upwards of 600,000 Israeli settlers moving illegally into Palestinian land. They represent the greatest obstacle to the creation of a Palestinian state and realization of a two state solution.”

“They [Palestinians] are removed from their homes and displaced to create new settlements… We have to embark on a process of settler decolonization … Israel is a settler colony.”
------------
First, it is untrue that the establishment of Jewish communities in the West Bank displaced Palestinians. These communities are located almost entirely, if not entirely, either on Jewish-owned land or land owned by the previous governing authority (Jordan, Britain, the Turkish Ottoman empire).
---------------------
Israel is the obligatory and legal military occupational authority of the West Bank, having taken the territory from Jordanian occupation in self-defense in the 1967 Six-Day War. But the land is not "Palestinian." It is disputed. Hence the need for Israeli-Palestinian negotiations according to U.N. Security Council Resolutions 242 (1967) and 338 (1973), and the 1995 Israeli-Palestinian interim agreement. Meanwhile, Jewish villages and towns built in the West Bank since 1967 are no more deserving of condemnation than are Arab villages built since then in previously existing Arab villages and towns.

The panel's claim, “… in 1948, when they [Israel] kicked out Palestinians from what we now call Israel at the green line” is misleading. The vast majority of Arabs who fled Israel (many remained) did so as a result of pressure from Arab leaders during the Arab-initiated 1948 war. The descendants of these Arabs have suffered at the hands of their own leaders and those of the broader Muslim world.

(full article online)

CAMERA: C-SPAN Pairs with Palestinian Panelists Purveying Anti-Israel Propaganda

 

[Shusha]

The coming months mark the centennial of Palestine’s forcible incorporation into the British Empire.

Really?!

 

[Sixties Fan]

Later on in the interview (40:53) listeners heard the following statements from Bethlehem born, Saudi raised, US educated Annemarie Jacir:

Jacir: “I think the Palestinians that are living in, you know, historic Palestine in a city like Nazareth – which is the biggest Palestinian city [sic] in Israel – they aren’t…who are they represented by? You know they are Israeli citizens on paper but they’re second, third class citizens. They don’t have the same rights. They’re not represented by the Israeli government for sure. They’re definitely not represented by the Palestinian Authority and so I feel like it is a community that lives a contradictory life and they’re struggling to find an identity…the identity and also, yeah, a political representative.”

Arab-Israelis living in Nazareth or anywhere else in Israel of course have the same rights as any other citizen – including the right to vote for their chosen parliamentary representatives. Eighteen (i.e. over 20% – reflecting the proportion of minorities in the population as a whole) of the current members of the Knesset are Arab-Israelis, Druze or Bedouin representing six different political parties (three of which – in contrast to Jacir’s claim – are part of the current coalition government) and surveys repeatedly indicate that the majority of Arab-Israelis view Israel in a positive light.

(full article online)

BBC WS radio listeners told that Nazareth is a ‘Palestinian city’