Who's to Blame: Big Government or Big Business?

[georgephillip]

.

Good stuff.

Both ends are causing damage, and they're both pointing the finger at the other guy. The government could play a vital and valuable service by (1) committing more to effective regulation than control, and (2) understanding that "more" regulation doesn't necessarily translate to "better" regulation.

Capitalism invites corruption just as does government. Seems to me the key is finding a proper equilibrium between the two.

.

Maybe it is also worth pointing out how every "government" yet devised has existed primarily to serve its wealthiest citizens. If there's a way to erect a wall of separation between the effects of private wealth and the state, it would probably be fought tooth and nail by today's Democrats and Republicans in DC since both parties depend on the same 1% of voters to fund their election campaigns and retirements. Possibly, both major parties have outlived their usefulness to this Republic?

Oh no, you've given me an excuse to say:

Do you want real change?

1. Short, strict term limits - They'd behave differently if they weren't worried about satisfying their donors
2. Publicly-funded elections - See above
3. Balanced Budget Amendment - Both parties would be forced to defend their taxing and spending agendas

Take the power from those who abuse it the most!

My weekly rant! Woot!



.

All three of your excellent ideas would be even more effective if they came into existence simultaneously at a Second US Constitutional Convention that was not dominated by elected Republicans AND Democrats AND their handmaidens.

I find it very hard to imagine any one of those improvements being seriously considered by our current duopoly in DC.

 

[georgephillip]

There is no distinction between the two anymore, unchecked power is a dangerous thing and I am astounded by people who just put up with it for the sake of conforming to party dogma.

Your avatar is the most powerful metaphor I've seen on this board.
Imagine if your lone speaker behind the podium was the US Congress.
And the citizens on the other end of the plank were deciding to reject Republicans AND Democrats in the next election?
POWER to the PEOPLE (again)

 

[georgephillip]

I think both Liberals and Conservatives generally believe Big Business is corrupt. The difference is their view on Government.

Remember, Government is the entity that legalized slavery....denied women the right to vote....denied at least 1/2 the population basic civil rights for several centuries....and has variously stolen, poisoned, kidnapped or otherwise hurt millions of Americans up to the present day. Why anyone would be foolish enough to trust the Government is crazy in my opinion.

When liberals point to things they admire about Government....such as Brown vs Board of Education....it is inevitably pointing out Government fixes to problems or rights denied that the Government created in the first place.

I think you should factor in what Adam Smith and many others have said about the relationship of private wealthy businessmen and government:

"It shows Smith's belief that when an individual pursues his self-interest, he indirectly promotes the good of society. Self-interested competition in the free market, he argued, would tend to benefit society as a whole by keeping prices low, while still building in an incentive for a wide variety of goods and services.

"Nevertheless, he was wary of businessmen and warned of their 'conspiracy against the public or in some other contrivance to raise prices'.[82]

"Again and again, Smith warned of the collusive nature of business interests, which may form cabals or monopolies, fixing the highest price 'which can be squeezed out of the buyers'.[83]

"Smith also warned that a business-dominated political system would allow a conspiracy of businesses and industry against consumers, with the former scheming to influence politics and legislation.

"Smith states that the interest of manufacturers and merchants '...in any particular branch of trade or manufactures, is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public...The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention.'"[84]

Adam Smith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would argue Big Business is corrupt beyond Smith's ability to imagine, and elected Republicans AND Democrats dependence on the richest 1% of Americans to fund their campaigns is why Big Government behaves the way it does.

 

[racewright]

Yikes! Kind of all over the road there. Your parents need an education refund because they did not get their money's worth when you were taught the second R.

So if you pay for something and it is not as advertised do you keep it and say hey that life, or do you take it back? if they refuse to give you a refund I bet you would sue and take them to court.

Typical far left mindset.

Oh come on! Look at that horrible grammar and poor sentence structure. Public education obviously failed this one, maybe that's why he/she has such a poor opinion of it?

Actually self serving assholes like you who try and redirect the topic are the reason I have such a bad opinion of USA education.
I have seen my secretaries fill out to many W 4S for both college grads as well as High school kids. Oh yes my businesses have hired and fired hundreds of people like you (extreme union fools, could never get a promotion without your union rep).
So lefty you fell for it and are to gullible to follow.

 

[georgephillip]

Lobbying | OpenSecrets

Excellent site that talks about the Lobbying on Capital Hill...........
It tracks everyone up there from Political Contributions, Earmarks, and family members or staffers getting Lobbying Jobs for being Nice to their Political Donors.

The Corruption within this net is like a windshield being hit by a rock at 60mph. Creating a large spider web, which expands across the entire windshield.

The only thing to be done in order to fix the windshield is to replace it. However, all these CAREER POLITICIANS do is create more webs.

They all need to go, both sides. It was never intended to have Career Politicians, and now we have the best politicians MONEY CAN BUY.

Even when we fire some of them, they just find a new one to take their place and the cycle continues. Lesser of Two Evils Vote.

And so it continues...........Down the path to Hell for the future of our country. Those on the take don't care. They are getting rich down this path to Hell, and to Hell with the rest of our country.

The rich in this country, especially those living in DC and New York, exist almost entirely within a bubble. About the only time they come into contact with the non-rich is when they go shopping or hire new servants. Much of their wealth comes from the financialization of the world economy. Their net worth increases as the role of government decreases while that of global markets expands. IMHO, the ascendancy of
"shareholder value" over representative democracy is why elected Republican AND Democrat alike will continue the cycle of the Lesser of Two Evils until there isn't enough of a difference to bother casting yet another vote for Wall Street and those feeding at its trough.

 

[Dragonlady]

double post deleted

 

[Dragonlady]

Remember, Government is the entity that legalized slavery....denied women the right to vote....denied at least 1/2 the population basic civil rights for several centuries....and has variously stolen, poisoned, kidnapped or otherwise hurt millions of Americans up to the present day. Why anyone would be foolish enough to trust the Government is crazy in my opinion.

The government didn't legalize slavery. People did. Slavery existed in the US before the government existed. Government didn't deny women the vote, men did. Government isn't this thing that denies people rights, poisons or kidnaps or otherwise hurts people. People do these things. People do what they want and then enact or pass laws to legitimize the abuses.

There is an old expression which says that people get the government they deserve. The current form of US government is owned by corporations who created lobby groups and PAC's to ensure that their wishes were carried out, and the people stood by and let it happen. If the government is not serving the needs of the people, then it is up to the people to do something about it. Until they do, the government will serve the people who bought and paid for it.

 

[georgephillip]

Free Trade and massive Trade Deficits..............

Corps have outsourced the jobs overseas due to Free Trade Agreements. It has literally caused us to lose millions of jobs.............

Commerce Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Commerce Clause describes an enumerated power listed in the United States Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3). The clause states that the United States Congress shall have power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes." Courts and commentators have tended to discuss each of these three areas of commerce as a separate power granted to Congress.[1] It is not uncommon to see the individual components of the Commerce Clause referred to under specific terms: The Foreign Commerce Clause, the Interstate Commerce Clause,[2] and the Indian Commerce Clause.

Our Gov't has sold out to the corp's in it's responsibility to Regulation of Commerce. For over 200 years we have negotiated Trade Agreements with Foreign Countries. Most of the time it worked, balancing some forms of Protectionism versus losing Trade with other countries. While we cannot take a stance of Full Protectionism, we cannot go completely the opposite way with Free Trade.

We need to take the middle ground and not reward Corps for leaving, while balancing tariffs on foreign goods to ensure that our costs on products go too high. Prime example is China. Laughable EPA standards, Very Low Labor costs, yet we push our companies to extreme's on regulations and tell them to compete with countries like China. They simply have no choice but to leave as well.

And thus our jobs leave, and money circulation leaves as well. Costing us millions of jobs.

Do Free-Trade Agreements Create Jobs?

Ross Perot famously said we would hear a “giant sucking sound” as NAFTA took jobs from the US and he was right. According to the Economic Policy Institute (EPI) briefing paper Heading South: U.S.-Mexico trade and job displacement after NAFTA, “As of 2010, U.S. trade deficits with Mexico totaling $97.2 billion had displaced 682,900 U.S. jobs.” (That is net jobs, taking into account jobs gained.)

The EPI study did not look into NAFTA’s effect on US wages (but a 2001 EPI study found wage decreases). Clearly, however, NAFTA enabled companies to close American factories and move production to low-wage factories, putting downward pressure on everyone’s wages.

Public Citizen’s document, NAFTA’s Broken Promises 1994-2013: Outcomes of the North American Free Trade Agreement points out that over one million Mexican campesino farmers were driven out of business (and likely driven north to the US) by subsidized US corn from our giant industrialized farms.

"The U.S. Chamber of Commerce credits NAFTA with increasing US trade in goods and services with Canada and Mexico from $337 billion in 1993 to $1.2 trillion in 2011, while the AFL-CIO blames the agreement for sending 700,000 American manufacturing jobs to Mexico over that time.[21]

"Trade balances[edit]

"The US goods trade deficit with NAFTA was $94.6 billion in 2010, a 36.4% increase ($25 billion) over 2009.[22]

"The US goods trade deficit with NAFTA accounted for 26.8% of the overall U.S. goods trade deficit in 2010.[22]

"The US had a services trade surplus of $28.3 billion with NAFTA countries in 2009 (the latest data available).[22]

"In a study published in the August 2008 issue of the American Journal of Agricultural Economics, NAFTA has increased U.S. agricultural exports to Mexico and Canada even though most of this increase occurred a decade after its ratification.

"The study focused on the effects that gradual 'phase-in' periods in regional trade agreements, including NAFTA, have on trade flows.

"Most of the increase in members’ agricultural trade, which was only recently brought under the purview of the World Trade Organization, was due to very high trade barriers before NAFTA or other regional trade agreements.

North American Free Trade Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[occupied]

So if you pay for something and it is not as advertised do you keep it and say hey that life, or do you take it back? if they refuse to give you a refund I bet you would sue and take them to court.

Typical far left mindset.

Oh come on! Look at that horrible grammar and poor sentence structure. Public education obviously failed this one, maybe that's why he/she has such a poor opinion of it?

Actually self serving assholes like you who try and redirect the topic are the reason I have such a bad opinion of USA education.
I have seen my secretaries fill out to many W 4S for both college grads as well as High school kids. Oh yes my businesses have hired and fired hundreds of people like you (extreme union fools, could never get a promotion without your union rep).
So lefty you fell for it and are to gullible to follow.

You still write like a third grader.

 

[Doubletap]

Obama & the other "big government" despots are the reason our economy is not surging. Their legislation is crippling it further.
A complete separation of the Gov. & the economy will create massive prosperity for all.
Research the Austrian School of Economics, specifically Ludwig von Mises or "Economics In One Easy Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. Remember, our Industrial Revolution was created & fueled with a much less intrusive government. Since then we've been on the decline with a gov. that has progressively gotten bigger in scope and size.

 

[occupied]

Obama & the other "big government" despots are the reason our economy is not surging. Their legislation is crippling it further.
A complete separation of the Gov. & the economy will create massive prosperity for all.
Research the Austrian School of Economics, specifically Ludwig von Mises or "Economics In One Easy Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. Remember, our Industrial Revolution was created & fueled with a much less intrusive government. Since then we've been on the decline with a gov. that has progressively gotten bigger in scope and size.

Yeah the 19th century was a workers paradise, even you would turn socialist if you had to work under those conditions. Things were not that good for people with money either with panics and crashes coming out of nowhere to ruin thousands. The only people who had it good were the few at the top of the pyramid scheme known as the American economy and by god the .01% are trying to take us back there.

 

[Doubletap]

Obama & the other "big government" despots are the reason our economy is not surging. Their legislation is crippling it further.
A complete separation of the Gov. & the economy will create massive prosperity for all.
Research the Austrian School of Economics, specifically Ludwig von Mises or "Economics In One Easy Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. Remember, our Industrial Revolution was created & fueled with a much less intrusive government. Since then we've been on the decline with a gov. that has progressively gotten bigger in scope and size.

Yeah the 19th century was a workers paradise, even you would turn socialist if you had to work under those conditions. Things were not that good for people with money either with panics and crashes coming out of nowhere to ruin thousands. The only people who had it good were the few at the top of the pyramid scheme known as the American economy and by god the .01% are trying to take us back there.

You have your history wrong. The magnificient expansion of the economy was the result of the creators/ inventors.
BTW the staust quo is much worse today than back then.

 

[skookerasbil]

Big Business and Big Government are now joined at the hip. The whole fucking system is rigged. I was a Marxist at 20 and an uber conservative at 40. Now?????

Found this site about a year ago and swear by it.......its not pro-anything. Bashes Bush AND Obama equally.


Washington's Blog | Business, Investing, Economy, Politics, World News, Energy, Environment, Science, Technology Washington's Blog



The important thing is.....for the first time in my long life, I see Dems and GOP folks waking up to the reality that the middle class is getting royally fucked by big government and big business.


The big pushback is coming too..........but its gonna render the country a fucking Jonestown when it hits.

 

[occupied]

Obama & the other "big government" despots are the reason our economy is not surging. Their legislation is crippling it further.
A complete separation of the Gov. & the economy will create massive prosperity for all.
Research the Austrian School of Economics, specifically Ludwig von Mises or "Economics In One Easy Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. Remember, our Industrial Revolution was created & fueled with a much less intrusive government. Since then we've been on the decline with a gov. that has progressively gotten bigger in scope and size.

Yeah the 19th century was a workers paradise, even you would turn socialist if you had to work under those conditions. Things were not that good for people with money either with panics and crashes coming out of nowhere to ruin thousands. The only people who had it good were the few at the top of the pyramid scheme known as the American economy and by god the .01% are trying to take us back there.

You have your history wrong. The magnificient expansion of the economy was the result of the creators/ inventors.
BTW the staust quo is much worse today than back then.

No, it's not. Back then your town only had one store and the factory owners owned it, they also owned your house, ran your kid's school if there was one, and basically tried to dominate every aspect of your life from cradle to grave with hired goons to make sure the power remained in their hands. Early attempts at unionization were met with a kind of brutality we would scarcely believe. Life was good at the top of the pyramid, everyone else, not so much.

 

[georgephillip]

Sorry to kill your thread George....but no one who embraces Government power will be able to effectively answer the two posts above because they represent tyranny at it's finest.

My point remains...both big business and Government should be equally distrusted by the people. I think both Liberals and Conservatives generally distrust big business. Thank you both. Liberals imho are far less skeptical of Government power and far more trusting in this area than Conservatives. This is hurting America. I think you can easily hold liberal views and still be very skeptical and wary of Government power. I hope Liberalism eventually moves in this direction.

You're forgiven, WQ.
Thanks for the Turley Tip

I hope conservatives will someday recognize the corporate threat that Edward Snowden so elegantly revealed.

Happy New Year!

 

[georgephillip]

This argument has been hashed out 1000 times - however it still is lost on most Americans.
Who is at "fault" - bis business or the government?
They are one and the same. Big business controls the government. Anyone denying that is simply clueless and/or fooling themselves.
Both parties are thoroughly in bed with corporate dollars.

"Corrupt government agencies and officials and corrupt corporations and executives have become intertwined in a malignant, symbiotic relationship.

"And they’re trying to grab more and more power and wealth every day.

"Big Business Has Turned Into a Criminal Syndicate

"Big banks and giant oil companies have more or less become criminal enterprises.

"And conservatives are not amused.

"Government Has Gone Rogue

"If the government were accountable, then government corruption, deceit and wrongdoing would be held to a modest level.

"But the government is not accountable.

"When bad government policy leads to bad results, the government manipulates the data … instead of changing policy.Government pumps out massive amounts of propaganda through the mainstream and “gatekeeper” alternative media, movies, video games, and other venues.

"The government has launched a war on journalism, and censors and manipulates social media. And see this.

"The massive NSA is spying on all of us – including government officials, reporters, and everyone else – as a way to crush dissent.

"And people who criticize government policy or government officials may literally be labeled terrorists.

"No wonder the American public has lost faith in the 2 party system."

Albert Einstein: ?A Foolish Faith In Authority Is The Worst Enemy Of The Truth? | Global Research

And we can't change any of the above by "choosing" between Republican OR Democrat in the voting booth.

 

[Wry Catcher]

So if you pay for something and it is not as advertised do you keep it and say hey that life, or do you take it back? if they refuse to give you a refund I bet you would sue and take them to court.

Typical far left mindset.

Oh come on! Look at that horrible grammar and poor sentence structure. Public education obviously failed this one, maybe that's why he/she has such a poor opinion of it?

Actually self serving assholes like you who try and redirect the topic are the reason I have such a bad opinion of USA education.
I have seen my secretaries fill out to (That would be TOO, moron) many W 4S (that would be W-4 forms) for both college grads as well as High school kids. Oh yes my businesses (your "businesses"? How many "businesses do you have/work for?) have hired and fired hundreds of people like you (extreme union fools, could never get a promotion without your union rep).
So lefty you fell for it and are to gullible to follow.

I think you're full of shit. Any business with your attitude would spend too much money and too much time in recruitment, training, discipline, terminations etc. to be successful. As for you, any business which hired you is desperate and likely ready to go under. Why would any self respecting secretary/clerk put up an illiterate like you?

 

[racewright]

Oh come on! Look at that horrible grammar and poor sentence structure. Public education obviously failed this one, maybe that's why he/she has such a poor opinion of it?

Actually self serving assholes like you who try and redirect the topic are the reason I have such a bad opinion of USA education.
I have seen my secretaries fill out to many W 4S for both college grads as well as High school kids. Oh yes my businesses have hired and fired hundreds of people like you (extreme union fools, could never get a promotion without your union rep).
So lefty you fell for it and are to gullible to follow.

You still write like a third grader.

Those that can do those that can't teach----you still don't get it.

 

[racewright]

Oh come on! Look at that horrible grammar and poor sentence structure. Public education obviously failed this one, maybe that's why he/she has such a poor opinion of it?

Actually self serving assholes like you who try and redirect the topic are the reason I have such a bad opinion of USA education.
I have seen my secretaries fill out to (That would be TOO, moron) many W 4S (that would be W-4 forms) for both college grads as well as High school kids. Oh yes my businesses (your "businesses"? How many "businesses do you have/work for?) have hired and fired hundreds of people like you (extreme union fools, could never get a promotion without your union rep).
So lefty you fell for it and are to gullible to follow.

I think you're full of shit. Any business with your attitude would spend too much money and too much time in recruitment, training, discipline, terminations etc. to be successful. As for you, any business which hired you is desperate and likely ready to go under. Why would any self respecting secretary/clerk put up an illiterate like you?

Ex Cop who probably paid for his mortgage from drug bust money. Give me a break Cally Liberal. I can't even tell you how many retired cops we have fired. Go ahead grade me you moron. I have bought and sold many of you cops.

 

[georgephillip]

According to Einstein, we are asking the wrong question.

"Who’s to Blame … Big Government or Big Business?

"Conservatives tend to believe that the captains of industry are virtuous and that the government can’t be trusted.

"Liberals tend to believe that government servants are virtuous and that corporations can’t be trusted.

"But the truth is that psychopaths are psychopaths … whether they’re in the private sector or government.

"And there is no such thing as representative government or free market capitalism anymore. Big corporate money has coopted the government; and ill-guided politicians have destroyed the free market."

Al also supplied one possible answer to this (False) dilemma:

"Albert Einstein said:

"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of the truth.

"Indeed, scientists have shown that people will go to absurd lengths - and engage in mental gymnastics – in order to cling to their belief in what those in authority have said.

"Part of the reason so many are so vulnerable to naive belief in authority is that we evolved in small tribes … and we assume that the super-elites are just like us.

"In reality, there are millions of psychopaths in the world … and they are largely running D.C. and on Wall Street."

Albert Einstein: ?A Foolish Faith In Authority Is The Worst Enemy Of The Truth? | Global Research

FLUSH the DC toilet in 2014!

Greed, self interest and the callous disregard for others have infected both big and small business and elected and appointed officials at every strata of our culture. That includes organized religions and the popular culture as seen on TV, in Movies, Internet forums and even in literature.

Some people are saying our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian ethos, where, on any thread can the reader of my remarks point to a thread which expresses self sacrifice for others or even concern for our fellow citizens or future generations?

The point of the OP is well expressed, but he leaves us out of the equation; thus the problem expressed in the OP cannot be solved until We the People change way of thinking and acting.

We are here but for a short time, and how many of us give more than lip service to our posterity, or even to other generations which share the earth with us today?

I think Einstein was warning against investing in a foolish faith in any authority that can not justify its right to power, and Washington's Blog made the allegation that those who indulge in greed, self-interest, and the callous disregard for others have achieved a level of authority that many conservatives and liberals who are not rich regard as justified.

One of the keywords in the OP is

"psy·cho·path (sk-pth)
n.
A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse."

It may be those who amass vast private fortunes find it necessary to engage in "aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse" because they can not become rich otherwise.

It is up to us to find ways to insulate the power of the state from the antisocial influences of private fortunes

psychopath - definition of psychopath by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.