Why In Hell Are These Creeps Still Alive ?

[protectionist]

Proving again your desire to kill. You lower yourself to their level.

Put them away for life in secure conditions where they cannot order contract killings or kill other inmates: solitary confinement if need be. There is no reason for the State, which represents the public, to be a killer. It lowers all of us to the level of the murderer.

I agree. Capital punishment is not a deterrent, it is not cost effective, and the state has no business killing citizens.

And, as I have said before, with the number of wrongfully convicted people being released every year, we should be worried about executing the innocent. Then we become the murderers.

From a financial standpoint, the death penalty makes no sense. The added cost of trying a capital case and confinement is much more expensive than a typical life sentence. From the standpoint of punishment, life in a maximum security prison is worse than the death penalty. Also, there is no real evidence that the death penalty is even a deterrent.

This explains why only 20% of the countries in the world, mostly in Africa and Asia maintain the death penalty in both law and practice.

This is what happens when somebody comes into the thread very late, not having read the previous posted material. Three points are expressed here. One is highly subjective, and inconclusive. Two other points have already been soundly refuted, which I will repeat those now. A fourth extremely important point is not even mentioned in this post. And wouldn't you know, this pile of ignorance gets a Thanks from WinterBorn. HA HA. I love it.

OK. Now to repair the misinformation.

1. The so-called "added cost of trying a capital case and confinement" is only more expensive than a typical life sentence IF you engage in the stupid, and absolutely unnecessary practice of dragging the thing out for 15, 20, 25, 30 years through endless appeals. Well, EARTH TO FLOPPER: Anything is going to be inefficient and done improperly, if one is stupid in how they do it. Answer ? Don't be stupid. As has already been mentioned, in sure evidence cases (which are the only kind where execution should even be considered), the appeals process need not be any longer than 2-3 years. Do it in a sane/intelligent way, and then it WON'T BE more expensive.

2. As for how bad life in a maximum security prison is, relative to the death penalty, the great majority of prisoners choose that life sentence over the death penalty when they are given the choice. I've heard that prisoners can make some kind of a life for themselves, however limited. When you really think about it, there are millions of people living outside prisons in freedom, who are homebodies, who just stay in and use computers and watch TV. Prisoners lives aren't really all that much different from theirs, other than the free meals, free medical/dental, and lack of bills to pay. Maybe in earlier centuries, when there wasn't TV, radio, stereos, MP3 players, computers, etc. prison might have really been an awful grind. But today, prisoners can life nearly as well as typical homebody free folks.

3. No evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent ? The most important person to be deterred by the death penalty, is the convicted killer himself. There is 100% ABSOLUTE evidence that HE is deterred once he is dead. And for the consequences of him not being executed (and thereby fully deterred), >> See Post #s 9 and 36.
As for other criminals, as I already stated earlier, these would be deterred far more IF >>>
a. the executions were more public, instead of hidden deep within the prison.
b. they were painful, instead of the emphasis being on humane
c. They were reasonably swift (2-3 years), not ridiculous decades of appeals

 

[WinterBorn]

I agree. Capital punishment is not a deterrent, it is not cost effective, and the state has no business killing citizens.

And, as I have said before, with the number of wrongfully convicted people being released every year, we should be worried about executing the innocent. Then we become the murderers.

From a financial standpoint, the death penalty makes no sense. The added cost of trying a capital case and confinement is much more expensive than a typical life sentence. From the standpoint of punishment, life in a maximum security prison is worse than the death penalty. Also, there is no real evidence that the death penalty is even a deterrent.

This explains why only 20% of the countries in the world, mostly in Africa and Asia maintain the death penalty in both law and practice.

This is what happens when somebody comes into the thread very late, not having read the previous posted material. Three points are expressed here. One is highly subjective, and inconclusive. Two other points have already been soundly refuted, which I will repeat those now. A fourth extremely important point is not even mentioned in this post. And wouldn't you know, this pile of ignorance gets a Thanks from WinterBorn. HA HA. I love it.

OK. Now to repair the misinformation.

1. The so-called "added cost of trying a capital case and confinement" is only more expensive than a typical life sentence IF you engage in the stupid, and absolutely unnecessary practice of dragging the thing out for 15, 20, 25, 30 years through endless appeals. Well, EARTH TO FLOPPER: Anything is going to be inefficient and done improperly, if one is stupid in how they do it. Answer ? Don't be stupid. As has already been mentioned, in sure evidence cases (which are the only kind where execution should even be considered), the appeals process need not be any longer than 2-3 years. Do it in a sane/intelligent way, and then it WON'T BE more expensive.

2. As for how bad life in a maximum security prison is, relative to the death penalty, the great majority of prisoners choose that life sentence over the death penalty when they are given the choice. I've heard that prisoners can make some kind of a life for themselves, however limited. When you really think about it, there are millions of people living outside prisons in freedom, who are homebodies, who just stay in and use computers and watch TV. Prisoners lives aren't really all that much different from theirs, other than the free meals, free medical/dental, and lack of bills to pay. Maybe in earlier centuries, when there wasn't TV, radio, stereos, MP3 players, computers, etc. prison might have really been an awful grind. But today, prisoners can life nearly as well as typical homebody free folks.

3. No evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent ? The most important person to be deterred by the death penalty, is the convicted killer himself. There is 100% ABSOLUTE evidence that HE is deterred once he is dead. And for the consequences of him not being executed (and thereby fully deterred), >> See Post #s 9 and 36.
As for other criminals, as I already stated earlier, these would be deterred far more IF >>>
a. the executions were more public, instead of hidden deep within the prison.
b. they were painful, instead of the emphasis being on humane
c. They were reasonably swift (2-3 years), not ridiculous decades of appeals

Once again, with an estimated 10k wrongly convicted of serious crimes, there will be a portion that fall into the capital crimes category. And once someone is executed there is no going back.

 

[protectionist]

When it comes to costs, the comparison isn't between the cost of life imprisonment, and some absurdly, long drawn-out series of appeals (20+ years), paying big bucks$$$$$ to judges, prosecutors, defense lawyers, etc. The comparison is between life imprisonment and execution (one bullet ?) preceded by a couple of years of appeals.

Obviously, the life imprisonment is far more expensive with not only feeding a prisoner 3 meals a day for as long as 80 years, but also providing all his water, medical care, dental care, clothing, laundering, and whatever amenities prisons are providing these days. There's a subject calling for some research to be done on it.

I wonder how much of America's debt and deficit are being caused by all this needless expense of decades-long series of appeals$$$$$, while providing assured high-paying employment for happy courts personnel.

 

[protectionist]

The European Court of Human Rights has rejected arguments by Babar Ahmad and three other terror suspects that they could face ill treatment in a "supermax" American high-security prison.

The Administrative Maximum facility (ADX), or "supermax" prison in Florence, Colorado, holds some of the most notorious American terrorists and murderers in solitary confinement.

The prison is home to about 360 inmates held under ultra-high security. It is here, the suspects argued, they could end up if found guilty of terrorism in the US.

"We have only the most violent, disruptive and escape-prone inmates in the federal system," says Mark Collins, a spokesman for the prison. "Inmates who follow the rules can be rewarded with further time out of their cells and more opportunities to interact with other prisoners", Mr Collins says.

Lawyers for the other four suspects argued that the tough prison conditions would amount to "inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment", under the Human Rights Act.

But the court's judgement said that the facilities for prisoners, including television, radio, newspapers, books and telephone calls, "went beyond what was provided in most prisons in Europe".

 

[Flopper]

I agree. Capital punishment is not a deterrent, it is not cost effective, and the state has no business killing citizens.

And, as I have said before, with the number of wrongfully convicted people being released every year, we should be worried about executing the innocent. Then we become the murderers.

From a financial standpoint, the death penalty makes no sense. The added cost of trying a capital case and confinement is much more expensive than a typical life sentence. From the standpoint of punishment, life in a maximum security prison is worse than the death penalty. Also, there is no real evidence that the death penalty is even a deterrent.

This explains why only 20% of the countries in the world, mostly in Africa and Asia maintain the death penalty in both law and practice.

This is what happens when somebody comes into the thread very late, not having read the previous posted material. Three points are expressed here. One is highly subjective, and inconclusive. Two other points have already been soundly refuted, which I will repeat those now. A fourth extremely important point is not even mentioned in this post. And wouldn't you know, this pile of ignorance gets a Thanks from WinterBorn. HA HA. I love it.

OK. Now to repair the misinformation.

1. The so-called "added cost of trying a capital case and confinement" is only more expensive than a typical life sentence IF you engage in the stupid, and absolutely unnecessary practice of dragging the thing out for 15, 20, 25, 30 years through endless appeals. Well, EARTH TO FLOPPER: Anything is going to be inefficient and done improperly, if one is stupid in how they do it. Answer ? Don't be stupid. As has already been mentioned, in sure evidence cases (which are the only kind where execution should even be considered), the appeals process need not be any longer than 2-3 years. Do it in a sane/intelligent way, and then it WON'T BE more expensive.

2. As for how bad life in a maximum security prison is, relative to the death penalty, the great majority of prisoners choose that life sentence over the death penalty when they are given the choice. I've heard that prisoners can make some kind of a life for themselves, however limited. When you really think about it, there are millions of people living outside prisons in freedom, who are homebodies, who just stay in and use computers and watch TV. Prisoners lives aren't really all that much different from theirs, other than the free meals, free medical/dental, and lack of bills to pay. Maybe in earlier centuries, when there wasn't TV, radio, stereos, MP3 players, computers, etc. prison might have really been an awful grind. But today, prisoners can life nearly as well as typical homebody free folks.

3. No evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent ? The most important person to be deterred by the death penalty, is the convicted killer himself. There is 100% ABSOLUTE evidence that HE is deterred once he is dead. And for the consequences of him not being executed (and thereby fully deterred), >> See Post #s 9 and 36.
As for other criminals, as I already stated earlier, these would be deterred far more IF >>>
a. the executions were more public, instead of hidden deep within the prison.
b. they were painful, instead of the emphasis being on humane
c. They were reasonably swift (2-3 years), not ridiculous decades of appeals

2 out of every 3 death sentence appeals are reversed and 7% of those are found innocent on retrial. Apparently, you consider the execution of a few innocent people acceptable in order to speed up executions and reduce cost. I seriously doubt the public would agree with you.

Finally we can agree on something. The executed are deterred from repeating their crime, brilliant deduction. Society is also protected from the criminal by incarceration, but I guess you didn't think of that.

Your suggestion that executions should be made painful and public as a deterrent is ridiculous. During the 1600's, pickpockets and buglers were publicly executed in London drawing large crowds which often fell prey to thieves. In one case, a person was executed for stealing at an execution of another thief. Those that commit murder and often lesser crimes do not weigh the consequences of their act. However, in the minds of the public, barbaric treatment of the condemned makes the state no better than the condemned.

The overwhelming conclusion from years of deterrence studies is that the death penalty is, at best, no more of a deterrent than a sentence of life in prison. The death penalty is not a deterrent because most people who commit murders either do not expect to be caught or do not carefully weigh the differences between a possible execution and life in prison before they act. Eighty-eight percent of the country’s top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent to homicide.

All the debate about capital punishment will diminish if the of number executions continue to fall. The number of executions in US reached a high of 98 in 1999 and have been falling pretty steadily for 15 years. If the trend continues, the US will joint 80% of the countries in the world who have set aside capital punishment as a costly and barbaric form of punishment.

Death Sentences Being Overturned in 2 of 3 Appeals

Facts about Deterrence and the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center

The Newgate Calendar - Shoplifters, Pickpockets and Sneak thieves

 

[Meathead]

As long as executions are a state matter, they will continue. US citizens still support the death penalty at about 60%, still far higher than it did in the last liberal period in the late 60s. The trend will reverse now as it did then:

Death Penalty | Gallup Historical Trends

 

[protectionist]

From a financial standpoint, the death penalty makes no sense. The added cost of trying a capital case and confinement is much more expensive than a typical life sentence. From the standpoint of punishment, life in a maximum security prison is worse than the death penalty. Also, there is no real evidence that the death penalty is even a deterrent.

This explains why only 20% of the countries in the world, mostly in Africa and Asia maintain the death penalty in both law and practice.

This is what happens when somebody comes into the thread very late, not having read the previous posted material. Three points are expressed here. One is highly subjective, and inconclusive. Two other points have already been soundly refuted, which I will repeat those now. A fourth extremely important point is not even mentioned in this post. And wouldn't you know, this pile of ignorance gets a Thanks from WinterBorn. HA HA. I love it.

OK. Now to repair the misinformation.

1. The so-called "added cost of trying a capital case and confinement" is only more expensive than a typical life sentence IF you engage in the stupid, and absolutely unnecessary practice of dragging the thing out for 15, 20, 25, 30 years through endless appeals. Well, EARTH TO FLOPPER: Anything is going to be inefficient and done improperly, if one is stupid in how they do it. Answer ? Don't be stupid. As has already been mentioned, in sure evidence cases (which are the only kind where execution should even be considered), the appeals process need not be any longer than 2-3 years. Do it in a sane/intelligent way, and then it WON'T BE more expensive.

2. As for how bad life in a maximum security prison is, relative to the death penalty, the great majority of prisoners choose that life sentence over the death penalty when they are given the choice. I've heard that prisoners can make some kind of a life for themselves, however limited. When you really think about it, there are millions of people living outside prisons in freedom, who are homebodies, who just stay in and use computers and watch TV. Prisoners lives aren't really all that much different from theirs, other than the free meals, free medical/dental, and lack of bills to pay. Maybe in earlier centuries, when there wasn't TV, radio, stereos, MP3 players, computers, etc. prison might have really been an awful grind. But today, prisoners can life nearly as well as typical homebody free folks.

3. No evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent ? The most important person to be deterred by the death penalty, is the convicted killer himself. There is 100% ABSOLUTE evidence that HE is deterred once he is dead. And for the consequences of him not being executed (and thereby fully deterred), >> See Post #s 9 and 36.
As for other criminals, as I already stated earlier, these would be deterred far more IF >>>
a. the executions were more public, instead of hidden deep within the prison.
b. they were painful, instead of the emphasis being on humane
c. They were reasonably swift (2-3 years), not ridiculous decades of appeals

2 out of every 3 death sentence appeals are reversed and 7% of those are found innocent on retrial. Apparently, you consider the execution of a few innocent people acceptable in order to speed up executions and reduce cost. I seriously doubt the public would agree with you.

Finally we can agree on something. The executed are deterred from repeating their crime, brilliant deduction. Society is also protected from the criminal by incarceration, but I guess you didn't think of that.

Your suggestion that executions should be made painful and public as a deterrent is ridiculous. During the 1600's, pickpockets and buglers were publicly executed in London drawing large crowds which often fell prey to thieves. In one case, a person was executed for stealing at an execution of another thief. Those that commit murder and often lesser crimes do not weigh the consequences of their act. However, in the minds of the public, barbaric treatment of the condemned makes the state no better than the condemned.

The overwhelming conclusion from years of deterrence studies is that the death penalty is, at best, no more of a deterrent than a sentence of life in prison. The death penalty is not a deterrent because most people who commit murders either do not expect to be caught or do not carefully weigh the differences between a possible execution and life in prison before they act. Eighty-eight percent of the country’s top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent to homicide.

All the debate about capital punishment will diminish if the of number executions continue to fall. The number of executions in US reached a high of 98 in 1999 and have been falling pretty steadily for 15 years. If the trend continues, the US will joint 80% of the countries in the world who have set aside capital punishment as a costly and barbaric form of punishment.

Death Sentences Being Overturned in 2 of 3 Appeals

Facts about Deterrence and the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center

The Newgate Calendar - Shoplifters, Pickpockets and Sneak thieves

NONSENSE!!

No , it's not a brilliant deduction that the executed are deterred from repeating their crime. But it is a deduction that you FAILED to mention, when you made the FALSE and quite stupid statement that >> "there is no real evidence that the death penalty is even a deterrent." When discussing deterrent, it is the convicted killer himself who is the focus of the deterrent issue, not some possible copycats. Next time mention it, or shut up afterwards.

And so 2 of 3 death penalty sentences are reversed ? I haven't yet examined your links, so I won't say if I accept that or not as yet, but even if it were true so what ? I never said I was against appeals. I just said I was against the idiotic idea of stretching them out for ridiculous, unnecessary decades , and you should be too.

And NO, I don't consider execution of a few innocent people acceptable, and I never said I did . As I've reepeatedly stated in this thread, there shouldn't even BE a death sentence unless the verdict of guilt is 100% positive. And I don't consider 20 years to be necessary to determine guilt or innocence in htose type of cases (as long as ALL evidence being examined). As for cost, YOU brought that up, not me. I just responded to YOUR point about it.

Now, getting to YOUR dumbest statement of all >> "Society is also protected from the criminal by incarceration, but I guess you didn't think of that." Good lord, man. Are you dense ? I just went all through that with you explaining how NO, SOCIETY IS NOT PROTECTED FROM THE CRIMINAL BY INCARCERATION. How many times do you have to have this explained to you before it sinks into your thick skull ? Inmates kill other inmates. Secondly, inmates order hits on free people outside the prison. Thirdly, inmates sometimes escape and then kill again. And fourth, in some really idiotic states, convicted killers are sentenced to less than life, are released, and then go out and kill again.

I gave you references to the links in Posts # 9 & 36. Did you read them ? Or do you only read what you want to read ?

"in the minds of the public, barbaric treatment of the condemned makes the state no better than the condemned." Yeah ? Or is this in YOUR mind, and those of your likeminded ?

And now you say >> "Eighty-eight percent of the country’s top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent to homicide."
The MAIN and PRIMARY point of deterrence is that it deters the convicted killer HIMSELF, not copycats. If the killers mentioned in the list I proVided had been executed, their subsequent victims would still be alive today. Their deaths are a direct result of exactly this type of drivel that you are spouting off here now. You're actually indirectly killing people with your posts.

If the trend continues, the US will join 80% of the countries in the world who have set aside capital punishment......AND...>> THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WILL LOSE THEIR LIVES AS A RESULT - with your help

Like all of THESE >> Read Baby! Read!

1. On October 22, 1983 at the federal penitentiary in Marion, Illinois, two prison guards were murdered in two SEPARATE instances, by SEPARATE inmates, who were both serving life terms for previously murdering inmates.

2. In 1995, two death-row inmates at the Florida State Prison in Starke were killed by their fellow inmates.

3. Jack Henry Abbott, who had murdered a fellow prison inmate, was released early from a Utah prison. On July 18, 1981, six-weeks after his release, Abbott stabbed actor Richard Adan to death in New York.

4. Thomas Eugene Creech, who had been convicted of three murders and had claimed a role in more than 40 killings in 13 states as a paid killer for a motorcycle gang, killed a fellow prison inmate in 1981 and was sentenced to death.

5. Benny Lee Chaffin, on December 7, 1984 kidnapped, raped, and murdered a 9-year-old Springfield, Oregon girl. He had been convicted of murder once before in Texas, but not executed.

6. Jimmy Lee Gray -- who was free on parole from an Arizona conviction for killing a 16-year-old high school girl, kidnapped, sodomized, and suffocated a three-year-old Mississippi girl.

7. Samuel D. Smith -- in prison for murdering Zita Casey, 79, during a burglary in St. Louis in 1978. While in prison he murdered another inmate, Marlin May, during a knife fight in 1987 in prison.

8. Martsay Bolder -- Missouri. Serving a sentence of life for first-degree murder in 1973. Murdered prison cellmate 1979.

9. Randolph Dial -- Oklahoma. Life for murder 1986. Escaped from prison with deputy warden's wife as kidnap victim. 1989. Still at large. Warden's wife never found.

10. Randy Greenawalt -- Escaped from Prison in 1978, while serving a life sentence for a 1974 murder. He then murdered a family of 4 people, shotgunning them to death, including a toddler.

 

[protectionist]

Here's something from one of your links >> "The authors of the report said their findings confirmed a complaint by supporters of the death penalty who say the appeals process takes a long time. But, the authors said, "Judicial review takes so long precisely because American capital sentences are so persistently and systematically fraught with error." It takes years of review to catch the mistakes, they said."

ANd here's what I say about that >> BULLSHIT!!

 

[Flopper]

When discussing deterrent, it is the convicted killer himself who is the focus of the deterrent issue, not some possible copycats.

If the killer is the focus of the deterrence not other potential killers, then your argument fails because if the killer serves a life sentence in stead of execution he will be a danger only to other convicted felons.

 

[DriftingSand]

You should more accurately ask what is the difference between punishment in revenge. At the levels of atrocity reached by the condemned, there is none. Criminal justice is only served when the punishment fits the crime.

Short, but one of the more meaningful posts of this thread.

Meathead, if the conviction is absolutely accurate, you are correct. My issue with the death penalty is not that the criminals do not deserve it. My issue is whether or not the conviction is accurate.

In the vast majority of cases those found guilty left enough evidence behind to erase all doubt. The cases where someone is convicted wrongly are minute, comparatively speaking.

 

[protectionist]

When discussing deterrent, it is the convicted killer himself who is the focus of the deterrent issue, not some possible copycats.

If the killer is the focus of the deterrence not other potential killers, then your argument fails because if the killer serves a life sentence in stead of execution he will be a danger only to other convicted felons.

You really ARE incredibly dense, or just not willing to admit you've been proven wrong (FOUR times over) I just explained to you (in Post # 87) FOUR WAYS that convicted killers can kill again, if they're not executed. Let's go through it AGAIN until you get it, OK ?

1. Inmates kill other inmates.
2. Secondly, inmates order hits on free people outside the prison.
3. Thirdly, inmates sometimes escape and then kill again.
4. And fourth, in some really idiotic states, convicted killers are sentenced to less than life, are released, and then go out and kill again.

GOT IT NOW ?

And just because a fellow inmate is in the prison having violating some rule of society, that doesn't mean it's OK for him to be a high risk for being killed. Some of them are there just for marijuana possession or prostitution (victimless crimes)

Note: Al Capone is thought to have ordered dozens of hits from his prison cells between 1931 and 1939, and being responsible for much of the killing that went on in the bloody 30s in Chicago. While these haven't been proved, anyone advancing the notion that this couldn't be true, would have been laughed out of the building. I saw a documentary about hits ordered from prisons, with gang leaders using CODE in their vetted letters. This is going on constantly as well as the use of contraband cell phones. You are very naive, but that's what happens if/whenever you only pay attention to anti-death penalty media. (ex. MSNBC)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/cell-phones-call-hits-prison/story?id=12514648

http://kdvr.com/2013/08/26/prison-gang-ordered-hit-on-el-paso-county-judge/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...questioned-didn-love-report-article-1.1530733

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/Deadly--cells-_8212365

 

[WinterBorn]

When discussing deterrent, it is the convicted killer himself who is the focus of the deterrent issue, not some possible copycats.

If the killer is the focus of the deterrence not other potential killers, then your argument fails because if the killer serves a life sentence in stead of execution he will be a danger only to other convicted felons.

You really ARE incredibly dense, or just not willing to admit you've been proven wrong (FOUR times over) I just explained to you (in Post # 87) FOUR WAYS that convicted killers can kill again, if they're not executed. Let's go through it AGAIN until you get it, OK ?

1. Inmates kill other inmates.
2. Secondly, inmates order hits on free people outside the prison.
3. Thirdly, inmates sometimes escape and then kill again.
4. And fourth, in some really idiotic states, convicted killers are sentenced to less than life, are released, and then go out and kill again.

GOT IT NOW ?

And just because a fellow inmate is in the prison having violating some rule if society, that doesn't mean it's OK for him to be a high risk for being killed. Some of them are there just for marijuana possession or prostitution (victimless crimes)

Note: Al Capone is thought to have ordered dozens of hits from his prison cells between 1931 and 1939, and being responsible for much of the killing that went on in the bloody 30s in Chicago. While these haven't been proved, anyone advancing the notion that this couldn't be true, would have been laughed out of the building. I saw a documentary about hits ordered from prisons, with gang leaders using CODE in their vetted letters. This is going on constantly. You are very naive, but that's what happens if/whenever you only pay attention to anti-death penalty media. (ex. MSNBC)

Be careful, Flopper. If you show him to be wrong he will start ranting about you stalking him and threaten you with a ban from this site and jail time for cyber stalking. lol

Sorry, it still cracks me up.

 

[protectionist]

Short, but one of the more meaningful posts of this thread.

Meathead, if the conviction is absolutely accurate, you are correct. My issue with the death penalty is not that the criminals do not deserve it. My issue is whether or not the conviction is accurate.

In the vast majority of cases those found guilty left enough evidence behind to erase all doubt. The cases where someone is convicted wrongly are minute, comparatively speaking.

In addition, since the OP and its message are only IN THE CONTEXT OF >> those cases of 100% POSITIVE proof, the subject of conviction accuracy is OFF TOPIC, and has no business in the thread.

As I said previously, if anyone doubts the capability of attaining 100% accuracy in conviction, watch a few episodes of the TV show Forensic Files. It'll change your mind > Distinctly.

 

[WinterBorn]

Meathead, if the conviction is absolutely accurate, you are correct. My issue with the death penalty is not that the criminals do not deserve it. My issue is whether or not the conviction is accurate.

In the vast majority of cases those found guilty left enough evidence behind to erase all doubt. The cases where someone is convicted wrongly are minute, comparatively speaking.

In addition, since the OP and its message are only IN THE CONTEXT OF >> those cases of 100% POSITIVE proof, the subject of conviction accuracy is OFF TOPIC, and has no business in the thread.

As I said previously, if anyone doubts the capability of attaining 100% accuracy in conviction, watch a few episodes of the TV show Forensic Files. It'll change your mind > Distinctly.

Sine the validity of the convictions is often the reason for the delay (appeals, additional investigation, ect) questioning the accuracy of the convictions is part and parcel of the issue.

 

[bianco]

Proving again your desire to kill. You lower yourself to their level.

Put them away for life in secure conditions where they cannot order contract killings or kill other inmates: solitary confinement if need be. There is no reason for the State, which represents the public, to be a killer. It lowers all of us to the level of the murderer.

Exactly.
100% correct.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but it might have been correct, except for the JUSTICE factor and the CAPABILITY level of the prison system to accomplish these things. So far they haven't proven themselves to that degree, and even if they could get to that level, the whole thing crumbles because of one nagging factor that will always (unfortunately) be around >> CORRUPTION (which is especially problematic in cases of killers who have large amounts of money)

But some of you who think everything can be fixed, can roll right along in this thread with all the dreamy ideals you can envision. I'll stick with this from a professional who really knows the situation first-hand >> "On November 9, 1983 Associate U.S. Attorney General D. Lowell Jensen told a Senate subcommittee that it is impossible to punish or even deter such prison murders because, without a death sentence, a violent life-termer has free rein "to continue to murder as opportunity and his perverse motives dictate."

It's not impossible to stop or deter prison murders.
You just stop the corruption, ...stop the bad and corrupt people...and replace them with good people.
And, control the inmates properly.
And build more secure prisons, super, super, super max if necessary.

Unless one has 'dreamy ideals', what's the point of even getting out of bed?

Once upon a time the US Forces were segregated, Black People had to ride at the back of the bus, were slaves, and treated like dirt. Aboriginal People in Australia were classed by the govt as 'Flora and Fauna' and treated disgracefully [until the 1967 referendum].

The premeditated, cold-blooded killing of human beings by the state in death chambers is human rights abuse.

The UN Declaration of Human Rights is the 'dreamy ideal'.

 

[bianco]

"On November 9, 1983 Associate U.S. Attorney General D. Lowell Jensen told a Senate subcommittee that it is impossible to punish or even deter such prison murders because, without a death sentence, a violent life-termer has free rein "to continue to murder as opportunity and his perverse motives dictate."

Not if he's restrained.

Put him in one of those restraint chairs they have in the Portland jail, and put a bag over his head like they do...let's see him murder anyone then.
Then remove him from the chair and place him in a cell in a prison system only to a level where he cannot murder anyone...solitary confinement, shackles, pink cell, tv on the wall with video-link counselling sessions, etc...whatever it takes.

The govt is putting people on the Moon and Mars...I simply don't believe that safe and secure prisons cannot be built and run.
It's just a matter of wanting to.

 

[Flopper]

When discussing deterrent, it is the convicted killer himself who is the focus of the deterrent issue, not some possible copycats.

If the killer is the focus of the deterrence not other potential killers, then your argument fails because if the killer serves a life sentence in stead of execution he will be a danger only to other convicted felons.

You really ARE incredibly dense, or just not willing to admit you've been proven wrong (FOUR times over) I just explained to you (in Post # 87) FOUR WAYS that convicted killers can kill again, if they're not executed. Let's go through it AGAIN until you get it, OK ?

1. Inmates kill other inmates.
2. Secondly, inmates order hits on free people outside the prison.
3. Thirdly, inmates sometimes escape and then kill again.
4. And fourth, in some really idiotic states, convicted killers are sentenced to less than life, are released, and then go out and kill again.

GOT IT NOW ?

And just because a fellow inmate is in the prison having violating some rule of society, that doesn't mean it's OK for him to be a high risk for being killed. Some of them are there just for marijuana possession or prostitution (victimless crimes)

Note: Al Capone is thought to have ordered dozens of hits from his prison cells between 1931 and 1939, and being responsible for much of the killing that went on in the bloody 30s in Chicago. While these haven't been proved, anyone advancing the notion that this couldn't be true, would have been laughed out of the building. I saw a documentary about hits ordered from prisons, with gang leaders using CODE in their vetted letters. This is going on constantly as well as the use of contraband cell phones. You are very naive, but that's what happens if/whenever you only pay attention to anti-death penalty media. (ex. MSNBC)

Cell Phones Used to Call Up Hits From Prison - ABC News

Prison gang ordered hit on El Paso County judge | KDVR.com - Denver, Colorado News, Weather, Sports and more

Jodi Arias threatened hit on prosecutor, questioned why*he didn?t love her: report* - NY Daily News

Deadly ?cells? - Hits still being ordered from prisons - News - JamaicaObserver.com

Last year there were 39 execution for 1st degree murder. What we are discussing is substituting a life sentence for the death penalty, thus adding about 40 inmates a year to 2,000 convictions a year for 1st degree murder to a prison population that exceeds 1.5 million. Your contention that this will increase the murder rate is not supported by statistics, only your assumptions.

Murders arrange by prisoner do occur, but the numbers are very small and there is no indication that adding convicted murders will actual increase the number because of the few that have been prosecuted in the US most were ordered by people convicted of other crimes, not murder.

Multiple studies that have been completed since capital punishment was reinstated show that prisoners sentenced to life without parole do not pose any more threat to other prisoners or corrections personnel than do inmates in the general population, and in most cases “lifers” perpetrate fewer crimes in prison than those eligible for parole. In fact. lifers tend to be model prisoners and those convinced of armed robbery tend to be the worst.

url=http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-year]Executions by Year | Death Penalty Information Center[/url]
http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/12statab/law.pdf
https://death.rdsecure.org/article.php?id=555

 

[bianco]

If the killer is the focus of the deterrence not other potential killers, then your argument fails because if the killer serves a life sentence in stead of execution he will be a danger only to other convicted felons.

You really ARE incredibly dense, or just not willing to admit you've been proven wrong (FOUR times over) I just explained to you (in Post # 87) FOUR WAYS that convicted killers can kill again, if they're not executed. Let's go through it AGAIN until you get it, OK ?

1. Inmates kill other inmates.
2. Secondly, inmates order hits on free people outside the prison.
3. Thirdly, inmates sometimes escape and then kill again.
4. And fourth, in some really idiotic states, convicted killers are sentenced to less than life, are released, and then go out and kill again.

GOT IT NOW ?

And just because a fellow inmate is in the prison having violating some rule of society, that doesn't mean it's OK for him to be a high risk for being killed. Some of them are there just for marijuana possession or prostitution (victimless crimes)

Note: Al Capone is thought to have ordered dozens of hits from his prison cells between 1931 and 1939, and being responsible for much of the killing that went on in the bloody 30s in Chicago. While these haven't been proved, anyone advancing the notion that this couldn't be true, would have been laughed out of the building. I saw a documentary about hits ordered from prisons, with gang leaders using CODE in their vetted letters. This is going on constantly as well as the use of contraband cell phones. You are very naive, but that's what happens if/whenever you only pay attention to anti-death penalty media. (ex. MSNBC)

Cell Phones Used to Call Up Hits From Prison - ABC News

Prison gang ordered hit on El Paso County judge | KDVR.com - Denver, Colorado News, Weather, Sports and more

Jodi Arias threatened hit on prosecutor, questioned why*he didn?t love her: report* - NY Daily News

Deadly ?cells? - Hits still being ordered from prisons - News - JamaicaObserver.com

Last year there were 39 execution for 1st degree murder. What we are discussing is substituting a life sentence for the death penalty, thus adding about 40 inmates a year to 2,000 convictions a year for 1st degree murder to a prison population that exceeds 1.5 million. Your contention that this will increase the murder rate is not supported by statistics, only your assumptions.

Murders arrange by prisoner do occur, but the numbers are very small and there is no indication that adding convicted murders will actual increase the number because of the few that have been prosecuted in the US most were ordered by people convicted of other crimes, not murder.

Multiple studies that have been completed since capital punishment was reinstated show that prisoners sentenced to life without parole do not pose any more threat to other prisoners or corrections personnel than do inmates in the general population, and in most cases “lifers” perpetrate fewer crimes in prison than those eligible for parole. In fact. lifers tend to be model prisoners and those convinced of armed robbery tend to be the worst.

url=http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-year]Executions by Year | Death Penalty Information Center[/url]
http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/12statab/law.pdf
https://death.rdsecure.org/article.php?id=555

Well there you go!
So, there's absolutely no excuse for the States continuing with their execution-homiciding of human beings.

 

[WinterBorn]

If the killer is the focus of the deterrence not other potential killers, then your argument fails because if the killer serves a life sentence in stead of execution he will be a danger only to other convicted felons.

You really ARE incredibly dense, or just not willing to admit you've been proven wrong (FOUR times over) I just explained to you (in Post # 87) FOUR WAYS that convicted killers can kill again, if they're not executed. Let's go through it AGAIN until you get it, OK ?

1. Inmates kill other inmates.
2. Secondly, inmates order hits on free people outside the prison.
3. Thirdly, inmates sometimes escape and then kill again.
4. And fourth, in some really idiotic states, convicted killers are sentenced to less than life, are released, and then go out and kill again.

GOT IT NOW ?

And just because a fellow inmate is in the prison having violating some rule of society, that doesn't mean it's OK for him to be a high risk for being killed. Some of them are there just for marijuana possession or prostitution (victimless crimes)

Note: Al Capone is thought to have ordered dozens of hits from his prison cells between 1931 and 1939, and being responsible for much of the killing that went on in the bloody 30s in Chicago. While these haven't been proved, anyone advancing the notion that this couldn't be true, would have been laughed out of the building. I saw a documentary about hits ordered from prisons, with gang leaders using CODE in their vetted letters. This is going on constantly as well as the use of contraband cell phones. You are very naive, but that's what happens if/whenever you only pay attention to anti-death penalty media. (ex. MSNBC)

Cell Phones Used to Call Up Hits From Prison - ABC News

Prison gang ordered hit on El Paso County judge | KDVR.com - Denver, Colorado News, Weather, Sports and more

Jodi Arias threatened hit on prosecutor, questioned why*he didn?t love her: report* - NY Daily News

Deadly ?cells? - Hits still being ordered from prisons - News - JamaicaObserver.com

Last year there were 39 execution for 1st degree murder. What we are discussing is substituting a life sentence for the death penalty, thus adding about 40 inmates a year to 2,000 convictions a year for 1st degree murder to a prison population that exceeds 1.5 million. Your contention that this will increase the murder rate is not supported by statistics, only your assumptions.

Murders arrange by prisoner do occur, but the numbers are very small and there is no indication that adding convicted murders will actual increase the number because of the few that have been prosecuted in the US most were ordered by people convicted of other crimes, not murder.

Multiple studies that have been completed since capital punishment was reinstated show that prisoners sentenced to life without parole do not pose any more threat to other prisoners or corrections personnel than do inmates in the general population, and in most cases “lifers” perpetrate fewer crimes in prison than those eligible for parole. In fact. lifers tend to be model prisoners and those convinced of armed robbery tend to be the worst.

url=http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-year]Executions by Year | Death Penalty Information Center[/url]
http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/12statab/law.pdf
https://death.rdsecure.org/article.php?id=555

I thought it was a small part of the overall population, but 40 out of 1.5 million? Yeah, capital punishment is something we should abolish once and for all.

 

[Meathead]

Executions are a bit like flushing toilets. I am a strong believer in both.